The Graveyard of Champions Claims Another

[richard burch]

I say rest him and train up to the BC Classic if he does anything else this year at all.


spot on!

rest those legs.....no problem betting him in the B.C.

[MaTH716]

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints.
and keen ice and his jock ran a perfect race.

thing is, i thought ap ran a great race. except for not being able to hang on that is.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

i don't want to kill anyone.
if he rode him to win, that's what he should have done. if he didn't, that's what people would take issue with.
frosteds trainer implied he'd have settled better had he had his regular jock-and that's no one's fault that he didn't.

[jms62]

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[JimmyEllis]

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JimmyEllis

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

So Espinoza erred by using his horse's best weapon, his speed? Not sure I'm understanding this point at all.

American Pharoah was the lone speed on paper, he got the lead, went a moderate half-mile, was engaged and was beaten. He ran a fine race, one that was on par with the rest that he had run.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

I thought Lezcano did a good job, too. As thrilling as finally getting to see a TC happen was, I puzzled over why nobody tried to go with AP in the Belmont, since it gets won on the lead pretty often. What else was Lezcano going to do here? It's clear if you leave AP alone on the lead, he wins.

Doug posted years ago about horses dueling in discussing one of Rachel Alexandra's losses, and I remember he said even if the pace doesn't seem fast, a duel takes a lot out of a horse, just from the nature of how horses interact. AP may have been tired going into the race, or Lezcano's ride on Frosted may have thrown AP out of his comfort zone and that might have taken the starch out of him. Either way, between this and Kentucky Derby being his hardest races, I think it shows that under the right conditions, he's vulnerable at 1&1/4, and that makes for a more interesting BCC. You're right; it'll be fun if he runs in it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I thought Lezcano did a good job, too. As thrilling as finally getting to see a TC happen was, I puzzled over why nobody tried to go with AP in the Belmont, since it gets won on the lead pretty often. What else was Lezcano going to do here? It's clear if you leave AP alone on the lead, he wins.

Doug posted years ago about horses dueling in discussing one of Rachel Alexandra's losses, and I remember he said even if the pace doesn't seem fast, a duel takes a lot out of a horse, just from the nature of how horses interact. AP may have been tired going into the race, or Lezcano's ride on Frosted may have thrown AP out of his comfort zone and that might have taken the starch out of him. Either way, between this and Kentucky Derby being his hardest races, I think it shows that under the right conditions, he's vulnerable at 1&1/4, and that makes for a more interesting BCC. You're right; it'll be fun if he runs in it.

yeah, there's a quote...it's not how fast they run, it's how they run fast.