Classic DQ -- Update: Overhead video unearthed

[parsixfarms]

What are the rules? Since the stewards have been given more discretion and not adjudicated these matters under "a foul is a foul" rule, I've always thought the rule was whether a horse was deprived a chance to achieve a maximum placing. (That certainly seemed to be the case with Shared Belief and, to a greater degree, Moreno given his style of running.) To state that they are viewing these matters under a "where they were reasonably expected to finish" standard is scary. Now the stewards are handicappers as well? On a day where one longshot after another outperformed where they were generally expected to finish, I don't want the stewards determining who are hopeless horses and which ones are not.

A couple of other thoughts: What Garcia did yesterday was essentially the same thing that Calvin Borel did in the 2013 Kentucky Oaks and that was generally panned as a bush-league move.

The California stewards suspended Victor Espinoza for his ride in the Awesome Again and leave this incident alone. Where's the consistency?

[Gate Dancer]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

What are the rules? Since the stewards have been given more discretion and not adjudicated these matters under "a foul is a foul" rule, I've always thought the rule was whether a horse was deprived a chance to achieve a maximum placing. (That certainly seemed to be the case with Shared Belief and, to a greater degree, Moreno given his style of running.) To state that they are viewing these matters under a "where they were reasonably expected to finish" standard is scary. Now the stewards are handicappers as well? On a day where one longshot after another outperformed where they were generally expected to finish, I don't want the stewards determining who are hopeless horses and which ones are not.

A couple of other thoughts: What Garcia did yesterday was essentially the same thing that Calvin Borel did in the 2013 Kentucky Oaks and that was generally panned as a bush-league move.

The California stewards suspended Victor Espinoza for his ride in the Awesome Again and leave this incident alone. Where's the consistency?

Agree with this totally.............didn't have a "dog in the fight' but hated to see this happen. Watched the head-on several times and just can't help but conclude that Bayern sawed off the 3 horses inside of him. That move greatly impacted the remainder of the race and most certainly denied Moreno any shot at all. I knew they would never take down Baffert but it certainly taints the victory, in my opinion. (as if that matters).

I hate hypotheticals but I pose this one: Trade Moreno for Bayern in the race positions and at the start of the race. Do you think they would have taken Moreno down? I can imagine Baffert himself getting on the phone to the stewards.............

But hey, I'm probably still bitter about the DQ in the 1984 BC Classic......

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

What are the rules? Since the stewards have been given more discretion and not adjudicated these matters under "a foul is a foul" rule, I've always thought the rule was whether a horse was deprived a chance to achieve a maximum placing. (That certainly seemed to be the case with Shared Belief and, to a greater degree, Moreno given his style of running.) To state that they are viewing these matters under a "where they were reasonably expected to finish" standard is scary. Now the stewards are handicappers as well? On a day where one longshot after another outperformed where they were generally expected to finish, I don't want the stewards determining who are hopeless horses and which ones are not.

A couple of other thoughts: What Garcia did yesterday was essentially the same thing that Calvin Borel did in the 2013 Kentucky Oaks and that was generally panned as a bush-league move.

The California stewards suspended Victor Espinoza for his ride in the Awesome Again and leave this incident alone. Where's the consistency?

The guiding rule in California regarding race riding.. Rule 1699. Chaney is quoting the rule: http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_a..._argument=1699

So difficult. Hard for me to be objective as Toast getting put up makes a big difference in my own results, but I was 100% expecting a DQ. The more I watch the replays, including the one from behind the gate, the more I get the non-call. Sawyer, Chaney & Ward have at least consistent in ignoring these incidents at the start. Arduous, frustrating end to the weekend.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The guiding rule in California regarding race riding.. Rule 1699. Chaney is quoting the rule: http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_a..._argument=1699

So difficult. Hard for me to be objective as Toast getting put up makes a big difference in my own results, but I was 100% expecting a DQ. The more I watch the replays, including the one from behind the gate, the more I get the non-call. Sawyer, Chaney & Ward have at least consistent in ignoring these incidents at the start. Arduous, frustrating end to the weekend.

Agree on the difficulty of being dispassionate regarding Toast of New York, but let's look at clauses (c) and (d) of the California rules :

(c) A horse which interferes with another and thereby causes any other horse to lose stride, ground or position, when such other horse is not at fault and when such interference occurs in a part of the race where the horse interfered with loses the opportunity to place where it might, in the opinion of the Stewards, be reasonably expected to finish, may be disqualified and placed behind the horse so interfered with. (d) Jockeys shall not ride carelessly, or willfully, so as to permit their mount to interfere with or impede any other horse.

Bayern's break clearly impeded at least three paths and more likely four paths from the break which would be interpretted as a violation of (c). More important however was that Garcia was clearly shoving for the lead and made little attempt to straighten the forward path of Bayern which was in violation of (d).

If Bayern had to correct course and straighten coming from the gates, you can be assured that he would not have been on the lead which would have compromised his chances in the race; in fact, everything there would have taken a completely different complexion.

As a result of an evaluation of (c) and (d) in addition to the consideration of Bayern potentially being course corrected, a disqualification was the proper call.

[Indian Charlie]

The stewards should have watched the 1989 Sprint where they took down Sam Who for doing a moderately worse start than Bayern.

I realize that happened before most people here were fans, but I think there is a parallel here.

I'm going to guess that the stewards would say in that instance that his start caused a DNF.

Which is little different than the result for Moreno.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Agree on the difficulty of being dispassionate regarding Toast of New York, but let's look at clauses (c) and (d) of the California rules :

(c) A horse which interferes with another and thereby causes any other horse to lose stride, ground or position, when such other horse is not at fault and when such interference occurs in a part of the race where the horse interfered with loses the opportunity to place where it might, in the opinion of the Stewards, be reasonably expected to finish, may be disqualified and placed behind the horse so interfered with. (d) Jockeys shall not ride carelessly, or willfully, so as to permit their mount to interfere with or impede any other horse.

Bayern's break clearly impeded at least three paths and more likely four paths from the break which would be interpretted as a violation of (c). More important however was that Garcia was clearly shoving for the lead and made little attempt to straighten the forward path of Bayern which was in violation of (d).

If Bayern had to correct course and straighten coming from the gates, you can be assured that he would not have been on the lead which would have compromised his chances in the race; in fact, everything there would have taken a completely different complexion.

As a result of an evaluation of (c) and (d) in addition to the consideration of Bayern potentially being course corrected, a disqualification was the proper call.

I think they (erroneously) determined that while a violation of clause (c) occurred, it was deemed to not have occurred in a key portion of the race. How you can determine that the break was not a key portion of the race, and thus had no final effect on the outcome of the race, is beyond me. I've read that the stewards look less harshly on the first jump or two (besides a horse being held too long) and even if that was the case, the second violation was well beyond that point.

I view the decision yesterday as rewarding dangerous riding. Thankfully, Shared Belief didn't get hurt and was able to finish the race. I found the race to be disappointing and hope they all meet again soon.

[rocknrowl]

I rarely post here, but this subject has me fired up. I did cash on the race, but a DQ of Bayern would have been even better for me.

I don't understand how anyone can think Matin Garcia did anything wrong. Bayern broke in and Garcia was trying to pull him back to the left.

I also think you could make a case that Toast of NY interfered with Moreno and Sharred Belief as much as Bayern did. Moreno was sitting 3rd until Toast made his move in causing Moreno to be taken up thus causing SB to check.

In the end I think it was a good no call.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by rocknrowl

I rarely post here, but this subject has me fired up. I did cash on the race, but a DQ of Bayern would have been even better for me.

I don't understand how anyone can think Matin Garcia did anything wrong. Bayern broke in and Garcia was trying to pull him back to the left.

I also think you could make a case that Toast of NY interfered with Moreno and Sharred Belief as much as Bayern did. Moreno was sitting 3rd until Toast made his move in causing Moreno to be taken up thus causing SB to check.

In the end I think it was a good no call.

I agree about Toast of New York.

However, even if it wasn't the jocks fault, I would find the argument that Bayern's start didn't cost Moreno a placing impossible to defend.

[Indian Charlie]

Also, just about the only scenario in which Bayern can win is one where Moreno gets taken out of his race.

Anyone who bet Bayern is phenomenally lucky.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by rocknrowl

I rarely post here, but this subject has me fired up. I did cash on the race, but a DQ of Bayern would have been even better for me.

I don't understand how anyone can think Matin Garcia did anything wrong. Bayern broke in and Garcia was trying to pull him back to the left.

I also think you could make a case that Toast of NY interfered with Moreno and Sharred Belief as much as Bayern did. Moreno was sitting 3rd until Toast made his move in causing Moreno to be taken up thus causing SB to check.

In the end I think it was a good no call.

whether intentional or no, the horse impeded several others. he should have been dq'd.
ironic that the guy kvetching about game on dude never being allowed to run his race wins with a front runner who mugged his early speed rivals, thus getting the lead and the race all to himself.