Mineshaft - am I losing my mind?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

If Seattle Slew had been retired after hs 3YO year ... I would have had grave doubts about calling him "great" ... for the very reasons you cite ... namely pizz-poor opposition.

But his performance as a 4YO wiped away all doubt.

Now here's something which will start an argument ...

I do not consider Ruffian to be rankable among the greats ... I think she was the most electric and talented filly I've ever seen ... but I rate her actual career on the racetrack as "Incomplete" .... because ...

... she only beat an extremely weak crop of fillies her own age ... never beat older fillies ... and never beat colts. She "probably" could have done those things ... but woulda/shoulda/coulda doesn't count.

Just as Seattle Slew had to be doubted after his 3YO season ended early ... so too with Ruffian.

Yeah, but Ruffian set or equalled stakes/track records every time out. She won at different tracks at different distances ranging from five and a half furlongs to 1 1/2 miles, and never lost. She won the filly TC. In the great match race, the jock was the regular rider of both Foolish Pleasure and Ruffian. He decided to ride Ruffian. They decided to race against Foolish Pleasure because he was the best colt in the country at the time. Lucian Lauren once said that she might even be as great as Secretariat.

If accomplishing all those feats isn't greatness, I don't know what is.

[JJP]

These are my top 10 for the past 25 years, in no particular order (actually alphabetical, since it would be too difficult to rank them 1-10).

Alysheba, Cigar, Easy Goer, Ghostzapper, John Henry, Risen Star, Skip Away, Slew O Gold, Spend A Buck, Sunday Silence.

No, I don't buy into the theory that top horses are better now than 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by JJP

These are my top 10 for the past 25 years, in no particular order (actually alphabetical, since it would be too difficult to rank them 1-10).

Alysheba, Cigar, Easy Goer, Ghostzapper, John Henry, Risen Star, Skip Away, Slew O Gold, Spend A Buck, Sunday Silence.

No, I don't buy into the theory that top horses are better now than 20 years ago.

A very nice list.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Why does a female need to beat males in order to be great? I dont understand that logic.

A filly doesn't "need to" beat colts in order to be great ...

... but if you're ranking fillies ... and some of them have defeated colts and some haven't ... which ones would you tend to rank higher?

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Yeah, but Ruffian set or equalled stakes/track records every time out. She won at different tracks at different distances ranging from five and a half furlongs to 1 1/2 miles, and never lost.

True ... true ... true.

But she did those things while beating up on a bunch of sad sack fillies her own age. How would she have performed against tougher, older fillies or a tough colt like Foolish Pleasure?

Would she have run as well as she did against the easy opposition ... or would she have cracked when challenged by a good horse ... like Lost In The Fog did?

And don't say, "I think she woulda/coulda/shoulda" ... because that doesn't count. I loved Ruffian as much as anyone did ... but ... based on her actual races ... I can't give her a specific ranking among the great fillies ... I can only give her an "Incomplete."

Mineshaft was a horse I will never forget. This was one of the most efficient horses I have ever seen run. His record may not look great, no TC, no BC. But this horse was quite simply a machine in my eyes. No waisted effort, a beautiful animal to watch.

Congaree. I wish we could see more of this type of horse. What a tough honest horse; That would actually win, come on Perfect Drift...

Azeri. Completely mismanaged. May have been the best horse on the earth from 3-5 with the right trainer. No maybe I should not say mismanaged. She won a heck of a lot of money entering the right races. There was no attempt to make her great, I think that is more fitting.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

A filly doesn't "need to" beat colts in order to be great ...

... but if you're ranking fillies ... and some of them have defeated colts and some haven't ... which ones would you tend to rank higher?

Well my top ten would be

Personal Ensign
Ladys Secret
Go For Wand
Ouija Board
Life's Magic*
Azeri
Bayakoa
Inside Information
Paseana
Winning Colors

But we all know that Kincsem was the best filly and prob best race horse ever.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia

LOL that's like a person accused of killing his parents, pleading for mercy to the court because he's an orphan! Medaglio ducked him and that should count against Mineshaft?

They all ducked him and yet he pays the price with a really mediocre reputation amongst fans. I don't get it.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Euro its the younger know it all guys who seem to make these arguments. Its a generational thing called what have you done for me lately. And its quite comical. A few posters on here are always calling horses "rats". You know, the kind of rats who have already banked 600g- 1 million bucks. They generally make these statements after one sub par outing. Earlier this year(I have your names, I have your posts) peopel were railing on about Sun King being a "rat". All hes done since then is win the Commonwealth and get beat a head in the Met. Man would I LOVE and DREAM to own 10% of a rat like that. All that cash and a liscense to go to stud now and make some more cash.
The guys who make these statements know NOTHING about horses and the physical problems or form cycles they get into. They think they are cars and the concepts of popped splints, entrapping, quarter cracks, etc. mean nothing to them. All they say is, hes a rat, because the horse lost. The fact that they know nothing about horses themselves is besides the point, they truly feel qualified to judge a horse a rat.
The new generation of horsefan seems to have teh following criteria for greatness: 1) You must never lose(especially a race that they bet)
2) You must never have an off day or sub par day(which basically means you must never bleed, entrap, jam up a foot, grab a quarter, pop a splint, buck shins, or suffer a fracture)
3) You must run your races in track record or near track record times.
4) You must never duck who they "say" is the main competition in their division. You must always face the very best you can find even if it makes no sense to do so due to time contraints betwen races or traveling to a strange place.

How maniacal is that?

You should have heard the things being said about Aptitude when he was finishing 2nd in so many big races. Someone actually said he should be sent to the glue factory! That is a kind of horse most people would kill for - finishing 2nd in the Derby? He should have won the Belmont, too........Ok, he developed a huge finishing kick later in his career, but even had he not....wow. I suspected at the time it's because he was by AP Indy -as if there was a resentment against a horse (Indy) that was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and was handed great broodmars on a silver platter. It's interesting - fans like Storm Cat and other sires who've had to work their way up to greatness, but they hate Indy, who they claim is only good because of the mares he gets.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

**** you oracle and your sanctimonious bs.

Jerrys TOp horses in the last 10 years

1.Dubai Millennium---GHOSTZAPPER
2.Rock Of Gibraltar
3.Candy Ride
4.Point Given
5.Fusaichi Pegasus
6.Mineshaft--see there he is
7.Azeri
8.High Chapparal
9.Dalakhani
10.Cigar

Jerry Brown is a clown (is it Jerry Brown) if he thinks Point Given or Fusaichi was anywhere as good as Mineshaft. And I still can't account for Candy Ride being up there when Mineshaft is #6 - because CR beat MDO? Well, MDO ducked Mineshaft for Candy Ride, so that tells you what Bobby Frankel thought.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Jerry Brown is a clown (is it Jerry Brown) if he thinks Point Given or Fusaichi was anywhere as good as Mineshaft. And I still can't account for Candy Ride being up there when Mineshaft is #6 - because CR beat MDO? Well, MDO ducked Mineshaft for Candy Ride, so that tells you what Bobby Frankel thought.

Betsy, he is not Jerry Brown....And if you talk to Brown like I have about Minehsaft he will tell you just how fast his numbers are compared to the rest of the lot.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Betsy, he is not Jerry Brown....And if you talk to Brown like I have about Minehsaft he will tell you just how fast his numbers are compared to the rest of the lot.

Oops, color me .....

Thanks for clearing that up, Randall. Jerry, if you're out there, I apologize!