Tim Duncan

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Like I said, Duncan isn't really a factor whether he plays well or not. The Spurs go as Parker goes, and he isn't going lately.

Duncan was good, Parker wasn't, Thunder win. Parker looks lost out there right now.

Good for Harden. Take that shot like a boss and save your team from OT.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Good for Harden. Take that shot like a boss and save your team from OT.

Westbrook was struggling. I was screaming at my TV "let Harden handle the ball!" Apparently, my TV passed on the info.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Good for Harden. Take that shot like a boss and save your team from OT.

Big man crush on Harden. Top 15 player right now IMO.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Duncan was good, Parker wasn't, Thunder win. Parker looks lost out there right now.

This is what Parker is resorting to now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=IPPDuHWkVZo

[Conrad]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Would he be considered the best NBA player of all-time if he played in a city with a big media center instead of San Antonio and wasn't a boring person with a boring defensive oriented game?

The Spurs have been like a top 5 caliber NBA team ever since he got there in 1997 and isn't he basically the only common denominator with the players on that team?

The Bulls went 55-27 during the season without Jordan.

I don't really watch basketball ever -- just wondering if Duncan doesn't get his due because he plays in a small market, with a defensive style, and a drama-less personality.

Although the chances look grim at this point, a fifth title would have cemented Duncan's place alongside Kobe as the greatest players post-Jordan.
Shaq too.
IMO he is the greatest #4 ever...The Big Fundamental

[Cannon Shell]

I dont understand how winning or losing a title has any bearing on a players historical standing especially toward the end when a guy is clearly diminished like Duncan is. It just makes no sense.

So basically if Parker had continued to play unreal and SA had won the title somehow Duncan is looked at as a better player?

And Duncan is a 5 and has been for at least the last 10 years. Perhaps we can use some revisionist history and make Hakeem a PF as well since he played with Sampson as part of the Twin towers?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Big man crush on Harden. Top 15 player right now IMO.

I have no idea how you compare different positions like Centers (like Duncan) and Point guards but...
No particular order
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
James
Dirk
Paul
Williams
Westbrook
Love
Bynum
Griffin
Rondo
Anthony
Rose
Gasol/Gasol
Aldridge
Ginobilli
Pierce
Garnett
Nash
Jefferson
Chandler
Smith
Johnson
Parker

Forgetting anyone?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have no idea how you compare different positions like Centers (like Duncan) and Point guards but...
No particular order
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
James
Dirk
Paul
Williams
Westbrook
Love
Bynum
Griffin
Rondo
Anthony
Rose
Gasol/Gasol
Aldridge
Ginobilli
Pierce
Garnett
Nash
Jefferson
Chandler
Smith
Johnson
Parker

Forgetting anyone?

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

Gasol/Gasol (especially Pau)
Bynum
Griffin
Ginobli (they are very close, but one is young, one isn't and he misses a lot of time)
Pierce (really, now?)
Jefferson (Al or Richard? ROFLMAO)
Smith


One I would add though:

Irving

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand how winning or losing a title has any bearing on a players historical standing especially toward the end when a guy is clearly diminished like Duncan is. It just makes no sense.

So basically if Parker had continued to play unreal and SA had won the title somehow Duncan is looked at as a better player?

And Duncan is a 5 and has been for at least the last 10 years. Perhaps we can use some revisionist history and make Hakeem a PF as well since he played with Sampson as part of the Twin towers?

All the positions are clouded now anyway, so what difference does it make?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

You've obviously seen Harden a lot more than I have, so let me ask you....don't you think playing with Westbrook and Durant helps out Harden's game a lot? In the same way a guy hitting in front of or behind someone like Pujols looks better than maybe they are?

Clearly Harden is a very good player. But I wonder if he looks better because of what is around him.

Off topic, but whoever your GM is deserves a raise. He's hit a lot of homeruns in the draft.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You've obviously seen Harden a lot more than I have, so let me ask you....don't you think playing with Westbrook and Durant helps out Harden's game a lot? In the same way a guy hitting in front of or behind someone like Pujols looks better than maybe they are?

Clearly Harden is a very good player. But I wonder if he looks better because of what is around him.

Off topic, but whoever your GM is deserves a raise. He's hit a lot of homeruns in the draft.

Honestly, in his case, it think if anything it holds him back a little bit. When he controls the ball, which he often doesn't do because of the other two, he is unbelievably efficient. His defense is pretty darn good too. When he plays without those two and draws a top defensive player and it doesn't seem to matter.

Sam Presti is a great GM. People here griped about Westbrook with the 4th pick. They did the same with Harden when he was taken with the 3rd pick. Thankfully, he seems to know what he is doing. He cut his teeth with the Spurs and obviously learned well.

[RockHardTen1985]

Harden is a stud. He does eerything well. I would take Harden over Melo anyday at this point.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

Gasol/Gasol (especially Pau)
Bynum
Griffin
Ginobli (they are very close, but one is young, one isn't and he misses a lot of time)
Pierce (really, now?)
Jefferson (Al or Richard? ROFLMAO)
Smith


One I would add though:

Irving

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

I'd have a hard time trading Harden for anyone...especially if I were the guy who drafted him 3rd.

Hindsight and whatnot but what looked like an awful pick is turning out to be pure genius. Harden is on the treadmill at a max incline.

The problem they have is keeping him long-term.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

Chuck I think your wrong on this 1. Plus I think Hardens a much better poing guard then Westbrook. He just creates, and does not really turn the ball over. Being 22 helps. Give him 4 years to improve his game, then another 6 in his prime. The guy is awesome now.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.

This was sort of my point, but didn't have the time to type it all out. Big difference between being the third option, compared to the first.

But I give Harden all the credit in the world for draining that three the other night. He didn't shy away from the moment, which is a quality you want in a player.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

Over Bynum? Absolutely. I don't think he will ever be a winner and is a cancer. Sure, he is bigger and more talented, but I would NEVER want him.

Griffin is a highlight show, but he isn't that great of a player. His game has some very big flaws.

It is always tough to judge a guy like Harden. It is possible he looks better playing with those guys, but the flip side is he might be better. He is a guaranteed 20+ PPG scorer if he was a #1 or #2 option, I don't care who is guarding him. All those things about coming off the bench and facing mostly reserves are kind of out the window in the playoffs. Even so, he is double teamed often. The Thunder are a team that usually has two guys on the court that can't score, and he still scores.

Josh Smith and Al Jefferson are numbers guys on not very good teams...big deal. Every team has one of those guys. I watch way too much NBA, so I don't just look at numbers. I wouldn't trade Jefferson for Perkins, why the hell would I think he is better than Harden?

[cmorioles]

Thunder +/- for the series:

Harden		47
Fisher		27
Westbrook	26
Ibaka		25
Durant		10
Sefalosha	8
Collison	8
Ivey		-5
Hayward		-5
Aldrich		-5
Mohammed	-7
Perkins		-16
Cook		-18

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Chuck I think your wrong on this 1. Plus I think Hardens a much better poing guard then Westbrook. He just creates, and does not really turn the ball over. Being 22 helps. Give him 4 years to improve his game, then another 6 in his prime. The guy is awesome now.

He isnt better than Westbrook. He is a good player but he fits his role on this team very well. I dont think he would be nearly as effective as the focal point of a different team's offense.

But of course you did say that Westbrook couldn't play in the NBA or something like that right?