Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years - Page 3

The Indomitable DrugS · #41 10-21-2009, 01:56 PM

Mizzen Mast got hurt right when it looked like he turned the corner to become a serious horse.

Only a single Gr 3 win on turf though. And only two races on dirt with Giant Gentleman 2nd both times. Certainly not enough .. but the talent was there at the end.

CSC · #42 10-21-2009, 04:11 PM

Volponi, memorable wins in the Classic, Poker, and Pegasus and a decent 3rd in the Sword Dancer.

*The field he beat in the Classic actually had some quality names in there.

NTamm1215 · #43 10-21-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Volponi, memorable wins in the Classic, Poker, and Pegasus and a decent 3rd in the Sword Dancer.

*The field he beat in the Classic actually had some quality names in there.

Volponi was never that good on turf.

NT

slotdirt · #44 10-21-2009, 04:20 PM

Poor, old Prized is still hanging with BTA in Charles Town.

CSC · #45 10-21-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Volponi was never that good on turf.

NT

He wasn't great but he wasn't chopped liver either. I could be wrong cuzz the memory is sorta fuzzy with him but I remembered him having many Jockies ride him or he would always run into some good horse.

The Indomitable DrugS · #46 10-21-2009, 04:37 PM

Volponi was just 1-for-8 on turf after his 2yo season - and 2-for-10 overall ... but yeah, he certainly could run his race on it.

Here's one of my favorite turf horses from the past ... he went from getting beat 14 lengths in a maiden claiming race in one November - to 5/2 odds in the Breeders Cup Mile the following November.

He would be a top 5 on a sucks on dirt and awesome on turf list if restricted to just American horses. There have been a lot of excellent Euro's who rocked on turf and couldn't beat anything on dirt.

RolloTomasi · #47 10-21-2009, 05:27 PM

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

freddymo · #48 10-21-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

#1. Dubai Millennium: Huge 6 length Dubai World Cup win in what certainly would have earned a Beyer figure in the 122 to 127 range. All 9 career wins coming by 2.5 lengths or more .. the excellent Slickly closest to him in victory. Only career defeat came at 12fs in the English Derby.

#2. Swain: Might be unpopular to rate so high considering he never actually won on dirt. In two dirt tries, he was 2nd beaten a nose to Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup and 3rd beaten a length to Awesome Again and Silver Charm in the greatest Breeders Cup Classic field ever.

However, he came away from both defeats as the no doubt about it best horse on that day. In the Dubai World Cup, he had to overcome making his first start off an almost 6 month layoff at 10fs. In the Breeders Cup Classic, Dettori took him to the outside fence out of fear of making eye contact with Silver Charm. An all-time dumb ride.

Won 10 of 20 on turf and ITM in 18 of 20 including races like the Arc and BC Turf. Was 3rd to Lammtarra in the Arc as an undefeated 3yo .. made final career start in BC Classic at age 6.

#3. Singspeil: Won only career dirt start in the Dubai World Cup by just over a length while making his first start off a layoff. The 2nd place finisher Siphon won the Santa Anita Handicap by 3 lengths in his previous start with a 120 Beyer. After the loss to Singspeil - Siphon returned to America and ran Beyers of 115 and 117 in his next two starts.

Final 7 starts of Singspeil's career: Win in the Canadian International over Chief Bearhardt. 2nd in the Breeders Cup Turf. Win in the Japan Cup. Win in the Dubai World Cup. Win in the Group 1 Coronation. 4th in the King George and QE in a race won by Swain. And win in the Juddmonte International.

#4. Candy Ride: Perfect 6-for-6. Multiple Group 1 winner on turf in South America. Both wins coming by 8 lengths. In his 3rd start, he took a Group 1 getting a mile in 1:31 flat and destroying a 15 horse field.

Won his only US turf race in the American Handicap. The horse who finished 2nd came back 3 weeks later to win the Grade 1 Eddie Reed by 5 lengths. CR finished his career with a 123 Beyer thumping of Medaglia D'Oro in a race where MDO was basically allowed to make his own pace - and was just overpowered by CR on the far turn.

#5. Giant's Causeway: Won 5 straight Group 1's on turf in Europe as a 3yo. Close 2nd to Tiznow in the BC Classic in his only dirt start.

Gets slight edge over Arc winner Sakhee because I believe Tiznow was a better horse late at age 3 than he was at age 4 and Sakhee was taken to the woodshed by Street Cry in the DWC.

All of these horses started off in a different country. If you elimanted foreign horses ... you'd have a pretty sad collection. You'd almost be left talking about Hollywood Wildcat and her son War Chant. If you did a top 20, I think at least 16 or 17 would have started off in a different country.

Heck, if Horse Chestnut steals the 20 spot, Africa may have as many horses on there as the United States.

I think I remember some 1970ish Triple Crown winner.. I think he was pretty fn good on grass also.. I just cant remember his name? He won a grass race when smoke appeared from his nose, he won a dirt race and smoke came for his feet. He would have eaten this top 5 for lunch on dirt, grass or a tarmac..

Bigsmc · #49 10-21-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

I think I remember some 1970ish Triple Crown winner.. I think he was pretty fn good on grass also.. I just cant remember his name? He won a grass race when smoke appeared from his nose, he won a dirt race and smoke came for his feet. He would have eaten this top 5 for lunch on dirt, grass or a tarmac..

We all remember him Freddy, but last I checked 1973 was 36 years ago.

freddymo · #50 10-21-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

We all remember him Freddy, but last I checked 1973 was 36 years ago.

That is a technicalty ..lol

Indian Charlie · #51 10-22-2009, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?

DaTruth · #52 10-22-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?

In Excess?

RolloTomasi · #53 10-22-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

In Excess?

Yep.

For those interested in what Jovial could do on turf, see the 1990 Cinema.

Hawkster was a Grade 1 winner on dirt at 2, placed in Strub at 4.

Bien Bien won the Swaps at 3, placed in the Big Cap later on.

RolloTomasi · #54 10-22-2009, 08:14 AM

Marquetry, Tranquillity Lake

The Indomitable DrugS · #55 10-22-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

I'd say from those horses ... only Geri has a shot at making a top 20.

Olympio is a horse I didn't think of - and one I'm not comfortable rating. He'd be 2nd most likely imo.

Bien Bien was just 1-for-8 on dirt ... and his Swaps win only got a 102 Beyer.

Hawkster did race in '90 - but was 0-for-5 with some bad races. I have him missing the date cutoff.

Jovial was downright terrible in most of his turf races. Multiple last place finishes in alw races.

Opening Verse wasn't much of a dirt horse from what little I remember.

CSC · #56 10-22-2009, 08:47 AM

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

The Indomitable DrugS · #57 10-22-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

CSC · #58 10-22-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

The Indomitable DrugS · #59 10-22-2009, 09:25 AM

There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

King Glorious · #60 10-22-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.