Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Disagree with this. The slow race wasn't only by her but also the horses she beat. Her injury may add to her performance and perhaps it's logical to think she could have gone a bit faster without the injury. But the second and third finishers didn't come out with injuries so that doesn't change the fact that the grade one race went slower than the next one.

Oh just a bit faster? Tear just about any muscle and try and compete, much less win.

She was clearly not 100% before the race. Even the Aussie punters/reporters were restrained on how she was looking going up to the race and they are some of the most biased lot in all of sports.

And really American racing fans should be kinda reserved about criticizing slow international races. Nothing was slower than the Mother Goose.

[Riot]

Yes. The mare usually wins by 3 to 6-7 lengths eased up. She's done it repeatedly in excellent times against good Grade 1 company (Hay List, Buffering), setting records, against older and colts, different tracks, etc.

If you are trying to make the argument this race at Ascot was average for Grade 1, yes. It was rated a 115. I don't see anybody arguing this race was outstanding.

If you are trying to use one of the worse races of Black Caviar's career, a race in which she was injured during the running, yet still won, as an indicator of the quality of the mare, that's wrong.

The mare was the Top Rated grass sprinter in the world before Ascot, and she still is, today. Her races are all on YouTube for anyone to see, and the times, distances and quality of competition is well-documented.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Riot

What American race horses have ever run 9-10 second furlongs mid-race in a 6 or 7 furlong race? I'm sure there are a few, but it's rare - a job for Lord to search his records and find out for us.

No horse can run a furlong in under 10 seconds mid-race unless they're going down a hill. It's impossible on a flat track.

The 6.5 furlong races on Santa Anita's turf course is run downhill. The track record is 1:11 flat.

[Riot]

But even in a herd, you would pick Black Caviar out in a cold minute. As an individual she is imposing: tall, massively strong in her hindquarters, weighing in at 585kg [1287 lbs ] which is more than the steeplechaser Denman, himself nicknamed The Tank because of his notable size and strength. A

s an athlete the innate power of her movement is extraordinarily compelling, at whatever speed. At a walk and a trot she has the balanced self-carriage of a trained dressage horse; at the gallop she has been measured at nine strides to the furlong. The second-best sprinter in Australia, Hay List, an even bigger specimen, takes 11.

The dark bay six-year-old's attributes as a runner, which include being the first horse in Australia to clock sub-10 seconds for 200 metres and 11 victories at the highest level, have captured the public imagination outside racing in a way that the sport's promoters in this country can only fantasise about.

Black Caviar was clocked at 9.98 seconds for 200 meters mid-race. 200 meters is not exactly a furlong, but that would still put furlong equivalent at less than 10.1 seconds, no? Have to get the calculator out. Do you know any horses that have run under 10.5 mid-race for a furlong? Dr. Fager? Ghostzapper?

[Riot]

Black Caviar's race record: 22 22-0-0-0

1000 meters = 4.97 furlongs
1200 meters = 5.965 furlongs
1400 meters = 6.959 furlongs

2-year-old:
NA 1000 m 0:56.63 won x 5.0 lengths
LR 1200 m 1:09/76 x 6.0

3-year-old:
LR 1200 m 1:11:15 x 3.0
G2 1200 m 1:09.96 x 0.8
G2 1200 m 1:10:18 x 2.3

4-year-old:
G2 1000 m 0:56:68 x 1.3
G2 1200 m 1:11:01 x 5.5
G1 1200 m 1:07:96 x 4.0
G1 1000 m 0:57.20 x 3.3
G1 1200 m 1:07:36 x 3.0
G1 1200 m 1:10:00 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:71 x 2.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:85 x 2.0

Five-year-old year:
G2 1000 m 0:56:73 x 4.3
G2 1200 m 1:10:13 x 6.0
G1 1200 m 1:08:03 x 2.8
G2 1200 m 1:09:44 x 4.3
G1 1400 m 1:25:14 x 3.3
G1 1000 m 0:55:53 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:10:65 x 4.5
G1 1200 m 1:10:32 x 1.3
G1 1200 m 1:14.10 x 0.1

[Calzone Lord]

The record time for 5 furlongs on turf here is Starfish Bay's 53.75 seconds. That's an avg furlong of 10.75 for the entire race.

She did it as a 4-year-old for Pletcher at Gulfstream in 2010.


http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=9

Raw times are always pretty useless without a variant. In the above example, the horses had a 150 foot running start till the timer was tripped.

I have no doubt Black Caviar has been the worlds best 5 furlong turf sprinter and is an all-time great at that specialist distance and surface.

A lot of Aussie and NZ breds have done very well in Europe. They've won 3 of the last 6 runnings of the Group1 King's Stand at 5f in England.

Black Caviar's only had one lifetime try beyond 6f and it was her least impressive race at home. She won a 7f Group 1 race easily -- but didn't run to the form of her typical wins. A Group 2 race also at 7fs was faster that day.

People go nuts for an undefeated record -- and couple that with a filly beating colts. She's obviously a great turf sprinter, but she's a turf sprinter. Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i think its cool she made the trip.and won wile things were stacked against her ie the going and her injury. very sporting of the connections..imo

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

[Riot]

I personally rate Black Caviar ahead of Zenyatta, too. Agree, it's difficult to compare sprinters with route horses. But the pure speed and power of an exceptional sprinter is exciting in it's own right. Caviar, IMO, has been more impressive over her career in her domination of all competition.

A lot of people can't appreciate a horse that can do 2 miles over 4-foot fences, either.

I think the point is to be able to realize you are watching an exceptional horse when you see it. And being able to appreciate that.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

Lasix?

Originally Posted by cmorioles

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

Get over yourself.

It is sweet seeing you and Riot agreeing here however. Maybe that's really what is bothering you.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Get over yourself.

It is sweet seeing you and Riot agreeing here however. Maybe that's really what is bothering you.

That's hilarious coming from you of all people considering who you work for and what line of work you came from.

I know what I am, f.uckface. And I've been completely over myself for some time. You, on the other hand, are an a.sshole of epic proportions representing the biggest bunch of incompetent douches in all of horse racing. And to even bring up a synthetic specialist against a horse who runs on a traditional surface just shows how completely out of touch you are.

Yeah Geelong, Wolverhampton, and F.ucking Lingfield are the future of racing. GTFO with your nonsense.

In 3 months of competition Black Caviar faced the boys 4 times at 4 different tracks compared to Zenyatta who had 2 races against the boys in the span of 12 months.

Yeah Zenyatta is clearly better and you're an idiot if you think otherwise said the paid shill.

Keep listening to the guy about everything. He's never wrong.

Me? I'm out of here. Can't continue this nonsense with people I'm basically supporting.

Starve midget. Cry over that word you insignificant narcissistic midget.

[Calzone Lord]

I was more impressed with Black Caviar than I thought I would be when I spent the time studying her form, performances, and home competition the best I could.

She is a true killer at her specialist distance. It's hard to win by those type of margins in turf sprints and the caliber of turf sprinter in AUS and NZ are better than I assumed.

20 wins over males and splitting them open and running times that appear very fast for the track in a lot of cases.

Obviously fillies and mares have more success against the boys in sprint races than route races. A lot of female speed sprinters have performed outstanding in the BC Sprint and few have been tried. Fillies and Mares also have more success against males on turf than they do on dirt. It's obviously a lot more rare for females to do well in dirt routes than turf sprints.

Like BTW mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a value system in horse racing and it's very hard to put turf sprint specialists with racers in the upper echelon. They just aren't even close to being important relative to horses who compete in the big races between 8-to-12 furlongs.

To use a general sports analogy -- Mariano Rivera was GREAT at throwing one pitch (a cut fast-ball) and pitching one inning. He was a specialist. Black Caviar has done a lot of great things and looks impossible to beat going 5 furlongs. However, a closer in baseball is far more valued than a turf sprinter is in horse racing.

Closers like Dennis Eckersley and Eric Gagne have won Cy Young awards. You'll have players in the Hall of Fame for what they've done as a closer. Turf sprinters get absolutely no respect in American horse racing year-end awards and Hall of Fame voting. And in Europe, only one turf sprinter has ever been European Horse of the Year ... that was the mare Lochsong in 1993.

[blackthroatedwind]

I think Drama Queen of the Day has been settled.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I did concede that it's logical to think that she could have run faster and won by more but I also don't think it should be considered as automatic. The other horses in the race were supposedly of grade one quality and their finishes weren't compromised by injury and they were below what was done in the next race. So I think we either believe that her race, even without injury, would have been right about on the level with what handicap horses did the next race or we believe that without the injury, she would have destroyed the field by 10+ and gotten her usual rating. I she usually running off and winning top races by 10+?

KG!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBh1iOpQQ_s

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?