Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

So ... what we have as "proof" for leftist propaganda talking points ... are ...

... are even more leftist propaganda talking points.

You have not ... and cannot ... cite a single example of liberties being stripped away ... or media being muzzled ... or allies being alienated.

The truest way to evaluate how foreigners regard another country ... is not to listen to leftists regurgitating their talking points ... but to watch the feet of ordinary people. And right now ... as always ... the feet of the people throughout the world are stampeding toward the United States ... not away from it.

Nearly everyone wants to get in ... and virtually no one ... including the leftists who compose the anti-American propaganda ... wants to get out.

Regurgitating talking points is not "thought" ... it's mindless toadyism.

No liberties have been stripped away, so you shouldn't expect an answer from these liberals who have destroyed the Democratic Party with their nonsense.

Originally Posted by Exceller

I despise Bush, but liberties have actually been expanded under him. Stop being a self-centered american and look at the world picture. The real problem with Bush is he ruined our military. It isn't our job to go freeing people. Help people free themselves, yes. Do it for them, no. George Washington freed his country with the help of the French, but he did most of the work. This idiot Bush thinks it is our job to free countries. Moron, yes, but a guy who stripped away liberties, that is ridiculous liberal nonsense.

You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

Originally Posted by Exceller

Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

[Exceller]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

[irishtrekker]

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

BB, I *live* abroad right now and encounter people from around the world every day who occupy every part of the sociopolitical spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince you that the ordinary person's view of American leadership is incredibly low. It's maddening to be American and to hear what people think of us, but the fact is that we're being held in pretty poor esteem by a majority of people from around the world. Opinion polls or individual conversations - they all indicate the same trend. I wish that weren't the case, but it is...and the best way to annoy a European that I know is to insist that everyone who dislikes America's behavior is some sort of elitist or is delusional. That's the fastest way to shut down a conversation with anyone from anywhere, or to get laughed out of your nearest pub. I'm certainly not saying that no one likes us, or that people won't be polite enough to save your feelings and say you're all right...but I've been here for a year now and have been depressed by the way people talk about us, both in my current country of residence and everywhere I travel. No one respects our current Administration, either, including some avowedly rabid Tories who happen to be my friends.

That hasn't been my experience in 34 trips to western Europe ... but maybe I haven't encountered as many rabid leftists as you have. I'm sure you're honestly relating your experiences ... and I say ...

... So? So what?

We singlehandedly saved Europe ... and most of the rest of the world ... from some of the most brutal, vicious tyrannies that ever existed. If the people whom we saved and their descendants ... who now live in the peace and freedom we created for them ... are ingrates ... why should we have any reaction whatsoever to that? Let them wallow in their ingratitude.

Meanwhile ... however ... they're all dying to come here ... because their native countries suck ... big time ... and they know it better than anyone.

Originally Posted by Exceller

No, you are leaving out a fact. Iraq had zero to do with 9-11. ZERO. You seem to forget about the 2500+ and 15,000+ soldiers/marines (few navy too) that have died fighting. This is a neocon war that was planned out in the 1990's. Even people in the military agree with that. The big problem is that now the military is so thinned out that countries like Iran can just laugh at us. A dictator in Iraq was never any threat to the US. Enough with your lies and justifications for this administration. THEY ARE INCOMPETENT. Bill Clinton was an idiot too. I make no excuses for him.

Whether or not Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 ... the fact is that we're fighting ... and defeating ... the terrorist enemy there instead of here. The terrorists have summoned all their minions to Iraq ... and our professional armed forces are eliminating them.

There hasn't been a single attack on American soil in nearly five years ... thought our sworn enemy would have dearly loved to inflict thousands of them.

Isn't having our best-trained people fight the enemy on their turf a much better strategy ... than having our civilians try to fend them off on our soil?

And if you think there's an alternative to those scenarios ... you have no understanding of the viciousness and determination of the savages we face.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

That hasn't been my experience in 34 trips to western Europe ... but maybe I haven't encountered as many rabid leftists as you have. I'm sure you're honestly relating your experiences ... and I say ...

... So? So what?

We singlehandedly saved Europe ... and most of the rest of the world ... from some of the most brutal, vicious tyrannies that ever existed. If the people whom we saved and their descendants ... who now live in the peace and freedom we created for them ... are ingrates ... why should we have any reaction whatsoever to that? Let them wallow in their ingratitude.

Meanwhile ... however ... they're all dying to come here ... because their native countries suck ... big time ... and they know it better than anyone.

Well, last time I was "abroad" it was to fun places like Nam, Laos, Cambodia...sorta got a mixed reception there, some chicks dug us, some tried to blow us up. I guess my point has always been that this is and hopefully always will be the greatest nation on earth (or anywhere within the United Federation of Planets)...no argument! I'd rather live here than anywhere (well, maybe a month or so in Paris, London and...you get the idea) but that doesn't mean I'm willing to turn a blind eye to problems...and we have a lot! Too much hatred...we always hate those we fear, fear those who are different or who we don't understand. We locked up the Japanese Americans in WWII but let the German Americans walk free, we kept and tortured slaves, committed genocide against the Native Americans...today, we beat up and violate the rights of gays and still hold women back from being truly "equal"! We've still got a lot of work to do to reach the manifestation of the words of the founding fathers. In this, the richest most powerful nation in the history of the world, children go to bed hungry every night, elderly folks are granted a "dignified death" (translation: allowed to die before their time) and babies are slaughtered in their mother's wombs under the lie of "choice"! "Churches" filled with haters picket and shout insults at the funerals of brave Americans who fell in battle cause they died defending a nation that "allows homosexuals to be part of society". And the idiot in the White House (yes, I voted twice for him) is more concerned about flag burning and gay marriage than the suffering of poor folk! Sorry but someone needs to speak out...authority, by it's very nature, needs to be constantly questioned!! More laws, more prisons, more fences at the borders somehow don't seem to be appropriate in "the land of the free"!!

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, last time I was "abroad" it was to fun places like Nam, Laos, Cambodia...sorta got a mixed reception there, some chicks dug us, some tried to blow us up. I guess my point has always been that this is and hopefully always will be the greatest nation on earth (or anywhere within the United Federation of Planets)...no argument! I'd rather live here than anywhere (well, maybe a month or so in Paris, London and...you get the idea) but that doesn't mean I'm willing to turn a blind eye to problems...and we have a lot! Too much hatred...we always hate those we fear, fear those who are different or who we don't understand. We locked up the Japanese Americans in WWII but let the German Americans walk free, we kept and tortured slaves, committed genocide against the Native Americans...today, we beat up and violate the rights of gays and still hold women back from being truly "equal"! We've still got a lot of work to do to reach the manifestation of the words of the founding fathers. In this, the richest most powerful nation in the history of the world, children go to bed hungry every night, elderly folks are granted a "dignified death" (translation: allowed to die before their time) and babies are slaughtered in their mother's wombs under the lie of "choice"! "Churches" filled with haters picket and shout insults at the funerals of brave Americans who fell in battle cause they died defending a nation that "allows homosexuals to be part of society". And the idiot in the White House (yes, I voted twice for him) is more concerned about flag burning and gay marriage than the suffering of poor folk! Sorry but someone needs to speak out...authority, by it's very nature, needs to be constantly questioned!! More laws, more prisons, more fences at the borders somehow don't seem to be appropriate in "the land of the free"!!

Much of what you say is sensible ... but some is not.

Slavery is something we inherited from the British colonialists. It was permitted to exist in some states in order to get the union formed ... but was permanently dispatched in relatively quick order ... 75 years after the adoption of the Constitution ... through tremendous sacrifices made by the overwhelmingly decent people of the country. No one alive in America today should feel any shame over it.

The idea that there are masses of children going to bed hungry every night is utter nonsense. The biggest health problem faced by American children today is obesity.

And if and when a homosexual ... or anyone else ... is beaten up ... the legal authorities arrest and prosecute the miscreants as best they can. No individual or group is denied legal protection in America today.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Much of what you say is sensible ... but some is not.

Slavery is something we inherited from the British colonialists. It was permitted to exist in some states in order to get the union formed ... but was permanently dispatched in relatively quick order ... 75 years after the adoption of the Constitution ... through tremendous sacrifices made by the overwhelmingly decent people of the country. No one alive in America today should feel any shame over it.

The idea that there are masses of children going to bed hungry every night is utter nonsense. The biggest health problem faced by American children today is obesity.

And if and when a homosexual ... or anyone else ... is beaten up ... the legal authorities arrest and prosecute the miscreants as best they can. No individual or group is denied legal protection in America today.

Bold B,
Ever hear of Matthew Shepherd? You're last statement proves your ignorance.
Your command of history is also inspiring...duh! correct me if i'm wrong but weren't the first slaves brought from West Africa (Mali), after the Incas were decimated by the Spanish? Their population was erased within thirty years due to disease (European), malnutrition, and overwork on the plantations and in the mines...but, hey? What do I know?
I'm still trying to connect Saddam with the 9/11 attack like you asserted.

My wisdom is totally wasted on your ignorance.
Go read some history books, or better yet, do a web search so you don't sound like such a fool. It's not for me to educate you.

Have a VERY HAPPY 4th of July!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Much of what you say is sensible ... but some is not.

Slavery is something we inherited from the British colonialists. It was permitted to exist in some states in order to get the union formed ... but was permanently dispatched in relatively quick order ... 75 years after the adoption of the Constitution ... through tremendous sacrifices made by the overwhelmingly decent people of the country. No one alive in America today should feel any shame over it.

The idea that there are masses of children going to bed hungry every night is utter nonsense. The biggest health problem faced by American children today is obesity.

And if and when a homosexual ... or anyone else ... is beaten up ... the legal authorities arrest and prosecute the miscreants as best they can. No individual or group is denied legal protection in America today.

You sir, live in a fairie-tale world! Children do indeed go to bed hungry every single night and I've seen it with my own eyes...from the hills of West Virginia and Kentucky to the violent streets of every city in America! I've worked among them and I know...don't have to read about it, don't need Rush to deny it! Cops have a high rate of physical spouse abuse...how do you suppose that goes? Gays often don't report crimes cause they are more afraid of the cops than the perps...if Elton John gets mugged, you're correct...the police will fall all over themselves to arrest and convict...not because gays have equal protection but because money speaks...don't believe that? Ask OJ!! I respect the police, they have a tough job, and I'm not singling them out...merely stating facts! Cops are like the rest of society...they mirror their predispositions! We have a very long way to go until all life is respected and all people are treated fairly!!

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Equal opportunity ... not equal results.

America is the land of incredible opportunity ...

The first part of course is totally bovine residue. The second point is why most of us live here.

Cmon Bold one. ON THE WHOLE there is very clearly most opportunity for white males in the US. You cannot tell me with any sort of sincerety, that if one wanted to have the greatest opportunity in the US, one would want to be a black female. Replace black female with white male and bingo, ON THE WHOLE, the greatest opportunity. You may point to exceptions like Oprah etc..., but on the average, no one in this country with any sense kids themselves about this country as it stands.

So tell me... you would rather have been born a latino female because this would, on average, give you the greatest opportunity in this country? If not, what ethnic group and sex would most likely lead to opportunity?

Caucasian and male. Any other response is dreamworld. Dont try and lie to yourself and make things look hunky-dory. I am damn glad I am Caucasian and male. I sincerely believe if I was black and female, my opportunties would not have been as great ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

This is what has lead to some of the very devisive equal opportunity rules that screw lots of Caucasian kids trying to get into college. BE real here.

[my miss storm cat]

As an aside, it seems to me a slight discrepancy, Bold, that you would say... " I wouldn't wager that anyone named as a suspect is completely innocent" on the Fallon thread.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold B,
Ever hear of Matthew Shepherd? You're last statement proves your ignorance.
Your command of history is also inspiring...duh! correct me if i'm wrong but weren't the first slaves brought from West Africa (Mali), after the Incas were decimated by the Spanish? Their population was erased within thirty years due to disease (European), malnutrition, and overwork on the plantations and in the mines...but, hey? What do I know?
I'm still trying to connect Saddam with the 9/11 attack like you asserted.

My wisdom is totally wasted on your ignorance.
Go read some history books, or better yet, do a web search so you don't sound like such a fool. It's not for me to educate you.

Have a VERY HAPPY 4th of July!

Wow! Are you erratic ... or what?

The Matthew Shepard case only reinforces what I said about American law enforcement ... it tracks down and prosecutes miscreants regardless of who the victim is.

And what does Spanish treatment of South American natives in the 16th century have to do with the United States today? How about the way the Mongolians slaughtered the Chinese in the 13th century ... should we blame that on Bush too?

In the 14th century ... one-third of the population of Europe was killed by an Asian disease ... known as the Black Plague. That's what usually happens when people who have been isolated from each other for centuries finally make contact. Should Asians today feel ashamed of what their disease did to Europeans seven hundred years ago?

As Jerry Seinfeld famously said to George Costanza ... you don't just need a psychiatrist ... you need an entire team.

God bless America on its 230th birthday today!

Originally Posted by pgardn

The first part of course is totally bovine residue. The second point is why most of us live here.

Cmon Bold one. ON THE WHOLE there is very clearly most opportunity for white males in the US. You cannot tell me with any sort of sincerety, that if one wanted to have the greatest opportunity in the US, one would want to be a black female. Replace black female with white male and bingo, ON THE WHOLE, the greatest opportunity. You may point to exceptions like Oprah etc..., but on the average, no one in this country with any sense kids themselves about this country as it stands.

So tell me... you would rather have been born a latino female because this would, on average, give you the greatest opportunity in this country? If not, what ethnic group and sex would most likely lead to opportunity?

Caucasian and male. Any other response is dreamworld. Dont try and lie to yourself and make things look hunky-dory. I am damn glad I am Caucasian and male. I sincerely believe if I was black and female, my opportunties would not have been as great ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

This is what has lead to some of the very devisive equal opportunity rules that screw lots of Caucasian kids trying to get into college. BE real here.

The main thing that has held back the economic progress of some African Americans is that they've bought into the concept of the Welfare State ... the idea that government will solve all their problems.

The African Americans who haven't bought into this ... who have been self-reliant ... and there are millions of them ... many of whom live right here on my upper class street ... have done spectacularly well.

And of course you completely overlook the amazing success of Asian immigrants in this country. The Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians, and Pakistanis are among the most successful and prosperous groups in this country.

You've made a foolish mistake by associating yourself with the hate-America leftist crowd. Get away from those losers ... and you'll be much happier and more successful yourself.

Think seriously about this ... and then act on it ... on this most appropriate day ... the day of Independence.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The main thing that has held back the economic progress of some African Americans is that they've bought into the concept of the Welfare State ... the idea that government will solve all their problems.

The African Americans who haven't bought into this ... who have been self-reliant ... and there are millions of them ... many of whom live right here on my upper class street ... have done spectacularly well.

And of course you completely overlook the amazing success of Asian immigrants in the country. The Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians, and Pakistanis are among the most successful and prosperous groups in this country.

You've made a foolish mistake by associating yourself with the hate-America leftist crowd. Get away from those losers ... and you'll be much happier and more successful yourself.

Think seriously about this ... and then act on it ... on this most appropriate day ... the day of Independence.

Do you think the Palestinians have any legitimate grievances? Yes or No?

[Downthestretch55]

BB,
I disagree with you regarding "America haters".
It IS possible to LOVE America yet dispute the policies of the present administration...in fact, I consider it patriotic, even if you don't.

May I also add that I wasn't the one that initated discussion of "history".
The obvious error of your "arguements" is diversion from the topic, insults, and "broad brush" categorizations. Typical freshman debating tactics.

[irishtrekker]

DTS, amen to that! Not sure why constructively criticizing America is always equated with hating it...Seems like certain people have so little security in their beliefs that they can't actually reflect on any idea that dares challenge them because they have to be right! I think it's quite patriotic to love a country despite its flaws, and to commit yourself to doing something about them.

Check out this editorial today, which I think sums it up quite well: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070300925.html

Happy Fourth, all.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

BB,
I disagree with you regarding "America haters".
It IS possible to LOVE America yet dispute the policies of the present administration...in fact, I consider it patriotic, even if you don't.

May I also add that I wasn't the one that initated discussion of "history".
The obvious error of your "arguements" is diversion from the topic, insults, and "broad brush" categorizations. Typical freshman debating tactics.

You say you want to dispute the policies of this administration ... yet all you've talked about are the Spanish conquistadors and the colonial slave traders of centuries yore.

Neither you nor your ideological comrades have come up with a single instance of "stripping away of liberty" despite having had ample opportunity to do so.

When you have a cogent thought of your own ... we'll all be glad to hear it. But rote regurgitation of leftist agitprop is a complete bore.