shaq to the Cavs - Page 5

horseofcourse · #81 06-28-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

yes, im sure he is a good guy. His agent is as well. You do know that he doesnt even live in cleveland dont you?

Yeah, good guy...thats why he doesnt opt out. LOL

HE lives in NY?? So that means he has hated playing for Cleveland? James is a Yankee and Cowboy fan?? DOes that mean something? The team stuck with him through almost 3 full missed years early in his career.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing. Why would anyone opt out of a 11.5 million dollar contract at the tail end of their careers? To hold the Cavs hostage? The Delonte West Trevor Ariza argument was better than this one. You have nothing here. Nothing. I just like the guy. He is a medical miracle with what is contained in his two feet and he stuck it out. I felt bad for him when his twins died at birth a couple years ago. I'm a softy that way I guess.

dalakhani · #82 06-28-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

HE lives in NY?? So that means he has hated playing for Cleveland? James is a Yankee and Cowboy fan?? DOes that mean something? The team stuck with him through almost 3 full missed years early in his career.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing. Why would anyone opt out of a 11.5 million dollar contract at the tail end of their careers? To hold the Cavs hostage? The Delonte West Trevor Ariza argument was better than this one. You have nothing here. Nothing. I just like the guy. He is a medical miracle with what is contained in his two feet and he stuck it out. I felt bad for him when his twins died at birth a couple years ago. I'm a softy that way I guess.

Im not saying anything bad about the guy. My only point is that the 11.5 million cleveland is paying is not by the team's choice at this point. I dont know how you or anyone could argue that. You dont pay 11.5 million for 18 minutes a game.

Cannon Shell · #83 06-28-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah, but whether you want to admit it or not, there are degrees of being open. Open enough to shoot? yes, I would agree most 3 point shots are taken when a guy is open enough to shoot a reasonable shot that isnt forced.

It seems to me that some of the shots Lebron's teammates get are incredibly wide open. Like, no one within 10 ft wide open. Wide open where they can actually take a dribble and set up if they want. I will find two videos and post them and show you what i mean.

Being wider open does not correlate to hitting more shots. Hell sometimes being unusually wide open is worse because you think for a split second because of it and dont just naturally let it fly.

horseofcourse · #84 06-28-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im not saying anything bad about the guy. My only point is that the 11.5 million cleveland is paying is not by the team's choice at this point. I dont know how you or anyone could argue that. You dont pay 11.5 million for 18 minutes a game.

Who cares if it's not the team's choice. I don't think the team minds having him around as their backup center. My guess is he'll play more than you think. I'm thinking Shaq is not good for 82 regular season games. Call me crazy that way, but I'm thinking not. I'm thinking Z himself played under 65 games last year as well. So if you really think Shaq is good for 80 plus games fine. I'm thinking he's not and why would the team not want Ilgauskas for those games Shaq is not available.

dalakhani · #85 06-28-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Being wider open does not correlate to hitting more shots. Hell sometimes being unusually wide open is worse because you think for a split second because of it and dont just naturally let it fly.

I actually agree with this point to a degree. On top of that, you have the pressure of having to live up to playing with a great player meaning if you win, its because of him and if you lose its because of you. If you miss those wide open shots, you will be on the bench or let go. I would imagine that could be tough.

However, the threes that i watched jamison, butler, stevenson clank this year were not nearly as clean of looks as they were getting when Agent Zero was doing his thing. They just werent.

Cannon Shell · #86 06-28-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But isnt what you are saying furthering my point that what they are paying him, 11.5 for 18 minutes a game, is not by choice?

If they could get rid of that contract and sign Pechulia for 6 million, you dont think they would?

That isnt going to happen so it is a moot point. That guy isnt going to take a one year contract. Not to mention with him not opting out the Cavs will have tons of money available next year with both centers contracts expiring. I think that he will wind up with more regular season minutes than Shaq.

Cannon Shell · #87 06-28-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

However, the threes that i watched jamison, butler, stevenson clank this year were not nearly as clean of looks as they were getting when Agent Zero was doing his thing. They just werent.

Jamison and Butler had the same % last year as they had lifetime. Stevenson was hurt and just generally awful.

dalakhani · #88 06-28-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jamison and Butler had the same % last year as they had lifetime. Stevenson was hurt and just generally awful.

Isnt it interesting that Stevenson never shot less than 40% from behind the arc, had his best season from three point land the one season he played with Arenas and then has been dreadful the last two years while he was out?

Butler isnt really a 3 point shooter so that was a bad example.

dalakhani · #89 06-28-2009, 11:33 PM

Raja Bell shot 47% from three point range for the Suns last year. He shot below 40% for charlotte after getting traded.

Was it the rims in charlotte? Was he getting better looks in Phoenix?

SniperSB23 · #90 06-29-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you kidding? This is what you are hanging your hat on? We are talking about THREE POINT SHOTS!!!! The Three point line is the same distance away from the basket regardless of WHO throws you the ball. Why is THAT so hard to grasp? There is no logic that says that a 24 foot shot is any easier if you are "more" open. It is still a 24 foot shot. If i am doubled teamed and pass to a cutting teammate for a layup, that is one thing. But if I pass to a guy behind the three point line the shot is equally as challenging as if the guy simply creates his own three point shot or has a pick run for him to get a three point shot.

I honestly can't believe I am reading that.

King Glorious · #91 06-29-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I honestly can't believe I am reading that.

That makes two of us. How can anyone argue that a shot with nobody around you is no easier than one with a guy in your face or running at you with a hand in your face?

horseofcourse · #92 06-29-2009, 10:21 AM

These are getting funny. I shouldn't speak for Cannon, but I think what he is saying is if you are open by 3 feet or open by 12 feet it is the same thing...you are still open. BAsically, if you're in rhythm, without blanket coverage and a hand 0.25 inches from your eyeballs, you're open.

King Glorious · #93 06-29-2009, 10:24 AM

If you are Glen Rice or Ray Allen and you only need an inch, I agree. For the vast majority of guys though, I completely disagree.

horseofcourse · #94 06-29-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you are Glen Rice or Ray Allen and you only need an inch, I agree. For the vast majority of guys though, I completely disagree.

Do you really see a lot of guys taking heavily contested, covered like a blanket three pointers in a NBA game? I don't. I rarely see heavily contested 3 pointers unless it's a shot clock emergency.

SniperSB23 · #95 06-29-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you are Glen Rice or Ray Allen and you only need an inch, I agree. For the vast majority of guys though, I completely disagree.

Still if you watch those guys in warmups they will hit 80% from that same distance. It isn't just having a hand in your face, it is how quickly you have to release the shot.

Cannon Shell · #96 06-29-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Isnt it interesting that Stevenson never shot less than 40% from behind the arc, had his best season from three point land the one season he played with Arenas and then has been dreadful the last two years while he was out?

Butler isnt really a 3 point shooter so that was a bad example.

Listen if you want to use stats at least use some context. In 2005-06 in 2648 minutes took 15 three pointers. In 2006-07 (with Arenas) he was 74 for 183 (40.4%) In 2007-08 (without Arenas) he was 158 for 413 (38.3%)

He took 130 more three point attempts !!! and was 3% below his previous seasons average. Are we to believe that he found 130 better shots in a season or because of the absence of Arenas he forced more shots? A drop of 3% is hardly significant when taken in the context of that many more shots.

As for last year he was so horrible overall from the field (31%), three point line (27%) and FT line (53%) in a limited amount of games due to injury that not much can be taken from that season.

Cannon Shell · #97 06-29-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That makes two of us. How can anyone argue that a shot with nobody around you is no easier than one with a guy in your face or running at you with a hand in your face?

You are making the assumption that guys playing without a star are taking contested three pointers. Why? Do only the teammates of superstars get open looks? That is really ridiculous. The whole premise that you guys are using is that a team with a great player will get guys easier shots. However since the three point line does not move the shots are equally hard. BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THREE POINT ATTEMPTS ARE OPEN SHOTS REGARDLESS OF THE TEAMS ON THE FLOOR!!! Seriously how many players that arent stars have the leeway to shoot contested 25 foot shots?

Cannon Shell · #98 06-29-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Raja Bell shot 47% from three point range for the Suns last year. He shot below 40% for charlotte after getting traded.

Was it the rims in charlotte? Was he getting better looks in Phoenix?

Nice, a 22 game sample.

Cannon Shell · #99 06-29-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Still if you watch those guys in warmups they will hit 80% from that same distance. It isn't just having a hand in your face, it is how quickly you have to release the shot.

Again why are you assuming that guys are going to start taking contested threes?

SniperSB23 · #**100** 06-29-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are making the assumption that guys playing without a star are taking contested three pointers. Why? Do only the teammates of superstars get open looks? That is really ridiculous. The whole premise that you guys are using is that a team with a great player will get guys easier shots. However since the three point line does not move the shots are equally hard. BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THREE POINT ATTEMPTS ARE OPEN SHOTS REGARDLESS OF THE TEAMS ON THE FLOOR!!! Seriously how many players that arent stars have the leeway to shoot contested 25 foot shots?

We area talking about a 3 to 5 percent difference. You really think it is unreasonable that a guy playing with a star who is going to draw double teams is going to get 3 to 5 more wide open looks out of 100 shots? You saw the numbers on Steve Kerr and that was over 5 years with the Bulls and 10 years with other teams so there was plenty of sample size.