Whose was/is the best?

[TheSpyder]

Alot of talk about present day horses, so who do you think was the best:

Sprint Horse
Distanse Horse (besides Secretariat)
Turf Horse

Bring it on...I'll have to think it over to make my selections

[TheSpyder]

OK, here are the four best:

http://www.fantasy-horse-racing.com/SingingHorse.asp

[Gander]

I think as far as sprinters go, the Tom Fool is going to have a lot to say about this year's Sprint Division. If either Silver Train, Anew or War Front run huge today, they would establish themselves as possible favorites for the BC Sprint. I see it as a race between the early speed of War Front and the closing kick of Silver Train. Conditions and track seem to be fair, may the best horse win.

The word "great" is tossed around much too lightly. I only use it for horses who were either champions each year they raced ... or who lost a championship to another great race horse ... and raced at least two full years.

I've been following the game since 1958 ... here's my list of great male dirt horses since then ...

1958: Three greats in one year ... Bold Ruler, Round Table, and Gallant Man.
1959: Sword Dancer ... one the the best 3YOS ever ... but not champion at 2, 4 ... margin of greatness ... but not quite.
1960: Kelso was HOTY five times ... can't do better than that.
1961: Carry Back was champion 3YO and outstanding at 2, 4 & 5. Another marginal great.
1966: Buckpasser ... champion at 2, 3, and 4.
1967: Another banner year with three greats ... Damascus, Dr. Fa-ger, In Reality.
1969: Arts And Letters ... another super 3YO and marginal great.
1973: Another banner year ... Secretariat and Forego ... five straight HOTY between them.
1977: Seattle Slew ... champion at 2, 3, and 4.
1978: The great duo of Affirmed and Alydar.
1979: Spectacular Bid ... runaway champion at 2, 3, & 4.

That's it ... there hasn't been a truly great male dirt race horse since then.

Those who have come close ... Spend A Buck, Slew O' Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away, Silver Charm, Point Given.

Of those ... Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, and Skip Away were the best.

[Gander]

As talented as Point Given was, I would hesitate to put him in the same group as Cigar and Skip Away. he didnt stick around long enough and really besides Monarchos, who did he ever beat with any real talent? E Dubai, Touch Tone? Cmmon. Probablt the most stunning visual move I have ever seen by a 3 year old but he quit before the hard stuff started. Skip Away and Cigar stuck around and even faced each other once where Skippy beat him convincingly.

Point Given was a teriffic 3 year old but I wouldnt call him a great horse. Skip Away was a great horse.

[somerfrost]

Well, folks who know me know that I maintain a list of "100 Greatest" in history of racing...always fun to post it and listen to folks complain when their personal favorite is ranked lower than they think or...god forbid...not at all! I've done the homework and can defend every ranking but it really is quite arbitrary, the further back in history one goes, the more subjective you become...anyway, my top 20 are:
1. Secretariat/ Kincsem (tie)
3. Ribot
4. Citation
5. Man O War
6. Flying Childers
7. Sea Bird
8. Eclipse
9. Native Dancer
10. Count Fleet
11. Spectacular Bid
12. St Simon
13. Kelso
14. War Admiral
15. Seattle Slew
16. Ruffian
17. Affirmed
18. Colin
19. Dr Fager
20. Exterminator

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

Alot of talk about present day horses, so who do you think was the best:

Sprint Horse
Distance Horse
Turf Horse

C/H: Dr. Fager (S).. Kelso (D).. Round Table (T)..

F/M: Ta Wee (S).. Gallorette (D).. Makybe Diva (T)..

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

Alot of talk about present day horses, so who do you think was the best:

Sprint Horse
Distanse Horse (besides Secretariat)
Turf Horse

Bring it on...I'll have to think it over to make my selections

I think it is funny that you just concede distance horse to Secretariat, that it is just a given that he was the best ever....Within a week or two I will be giving a breakdown of how it isn't so cut and dry.

[TheSpyder]

You guys are either very old or more connected to the history of horses. Now I'm going to have to get Steve Crist's book out and cap 100 years of racing. Actually that sounds pretty good. I know my favorite (maybe not the best) was Cigar as well as John Henry.

I'll be back to you with my picks.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat/ Kincsem (tie)
3. Ribot
4. Citation
5. Man O War
6. Flying Childers
7. Sea Bird
8. Eclipse
9. Native Dancer
10. Count Fleet
11. Spectacular Bid
12. St Simon
13. Kelso
14. War Admiral
15. Seattle Slew
16. Ruffian
17. Affirmed
18. Colin
19. Dr Fager
20. Exterminator

Hmmm ... how do you manage to compare horses which ran 4-mile heats on turf in 18th-century England ... to horses which ran on turf in central Europe in the 19th century ... to horses which ran on dirt in the United States in the 20th century?

Neat trick ... please tell us all how you did it.

Originally Posted by Gander

As talented as Point Given was, I would hesitate to put him in the same group as Cigar and Skip Away. he didnt stick around long enough and really besides Monarchos, who did he ever beat with any real talent? E Dubai, Touch Tone? Cmmon. Probablt the most stunning visual move I have ever seen by a 3 year old but he quit before the hard stuff started. Skip Away and Cigar stuck around and even faced each other once where Skippy beat him convincingly.

Point Given was a teriffic 3 year old but I wouldnt call him a great horse. Skip Away was a great horse.

Yeah ... you're probably right ... but I thought I'd try to squeeze a 21st-century horse onto the list. This hasn't exactly been the century of champions so far.

But I did mistakenly leave Ghostzapper off my list. He definitely belongs on there.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

You guys are either very old or more connected to the history of horses. Now I'm going to have to get Steve Crist's book out and cap 100 years of racing. Actually that sounds pretty good. I know my favorite (maybe not the best) was Cigar as well as John Henry.

I'll be back to you with my picks.

Some of us are very old and some are on crack.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hmmm ... how do you manage to compare horses which ran 4-mile heats on turf in 18th-century England ... to horses which ran on turf in central Europe in the 19th century ... to horses which ran on dirt in the United States in the 20th century?

Neat trick ... please tell us all how you did it.

I think I used words such as "arbitrary" and "subjective" in my original post. It is a neat trick and, in the end, it's one guy's opinion. I look at the entire picture, especially to what extent they dominated other horses...add to that how history has treated them and, with more recent ones, what I saw when I watched them run. Kincsem gave huge weight to males, traveled all over Europe and never lost a race...I mean 168 pounds, come now!! Her reputation is the stuff of legends...grazing unconcerned while the field broke to start the race, galloping to victory, traveling all over Europe at a time when you didn't simply hop a jet...how great was she???

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think I used words such as "arbitrary" and "subjective" in my original post. It is a neat trick and, in the end, it's one guy's opinion. I look at the entire picture, especially to what extent they dominated other horses...add to that how history has treated them and, with more recent ones, what I saw when I watched them run. Kincsem gave huge weight to males, traveled all over Europe and never lost a race...I mean 168 pounds, come now!! Her reputation is the stuff of legends...grazing unconcerned while the field broke to start the race, galloping to victory, traveling all over Europe at a time when you didn't simply hop a jet...how great was she???

Equally relevant ... how great was her competition?

A string of victories like that is nothing short of stunning ... but how can we be sure she wasn't the Lost In The Fog/Andy Kaufman of her day ... beating up on chumps?

And Flying Childers? Did he even race against thoroughbreds? The breed hadn't even been formalized then. And what leads you to believe he was better than Eclipse ... when contemporaries of that era thought Eclipse was incomparable?

Your all-encompassing global efforts are ambitious .. to say the least ... but when you become that subjective ... don't you risk losing perspective?

It's difficult enough to restrict it to classic-distance male American horses on dirt for the past 50 years ... without adding a couple of centuries ... another continent ... marathon distances ... heat racing ... both sexes ... and different surfaces.

And speaking of other continents ... where is Phar Lap on your list?

[Gander]

But I did mistakenly leave Ghostzapper off my list. He definitely belongs on there.

Yes indeed. Ghostzapper is a lot more worthy than Point Given.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Equally relevant ... how great was her competition?

A string of victories like that is nothing short of stunning ... but how can we be sure she wasn't the Lost In The Fog/Andy Kaufman of her day ... beating up on chumps?

And Flying Childers? Did he even race against thoroughbreds? The breed hadn't even been formalized then. And what leads you to believe he was better than Eclipse ... when contemporaries of that era thought Eclipse was incomparable?

Your all-encompassing global efforts are ambitious .. to say the least ... but when you become that subjective ... don't you risk losing perspective?

It's difficult enough to restrict it to classic-distance male American horses on dirt for the past 50 years ... without adding a couple of centuries ... another continent ... marathon distances ... heat racing ... both sexes ... and different surfaces.

And speaking of other continents ... where is Phar Lap on your list?

I have Phar Lap at #32, just after Pot8os at #31. FYI, Elusive Pimpernel came in at #99 with Sinndar and Giants Causeway tied at #100.

[Five Star Derek]

What about Zippy Chippy?

[TheSpyder]

As for the best horse of all time what about Red Rum? The horse only won the Grand National (Aintree, England) three times and came in second twice out of five runs. This is a race that is about 4 1/2 miles has, I don't know 26 jumps and usually 45 horses start and maybe 9 finish. It's the only race you can smoke two cigarttees watching it. This horse was really something! Raced 100 times and won 28 times and second 37 times. And that was flat, steple chace and hurdles. And this wasn't 100 years ago but in the 70's.

[packerbacker7964]

Where's Tiznow on the all most list. BC Classic two years in a row and defeated some good stock doing it. I know there has been some great horses from over seas over the years also. I myself like the ones who've made me money over the years. Silver Charm, Spain, Free House, Cat Thief, Thunder Gulch and the back bone of racing the little cheap claimers who go into the gates 15 to 20 times a year. I love the Claiming Crown races and think they need more of the them for the little guys. It's like the Manhattan Handicap giving away a 500k purse and they let the little guys suffer all year long with a average day pusre below 100k.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I have Phar Lap at #32, just after Pot8os at #31. FYI, Elusive Pimpernel came in at #99 with Sinndar and Giants Causeway tied at #100.

OK ... I completely agree with each of those rankings.

So ... where do you have Barcaldine, Flying Fox, Ormonde, Hindoo, Commando, Galopin, Hamburg, St. Frusquin, Springfield, Rock Sand, Bahram, Cyllene, Hyperion, Isinglass, Carbine, and Mayan King?

And shouldn't your #31 horse be spelled "Pot-oooooooo" as it was originally scrawled outside his stall?

And how long do you think it will be before all thoroughbreds trace directly from Whalebone?