first samurai - Page 2

Scav · #21 10-03-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

He also had a horse break his maiden at Arlington this past summer who ran back off the board in the ARl Wash futurity that he also bred.

WTF, how come I didn't know about this?

Cannon Shell · #22 10-03-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paisjpq

You may be right but they laid out fair amount for HH last year so who's to say they won't pursue some offspring of the best sons of coolmore's boys?

That was before the real hostilities began. Also Hennessey is already proven sire with fertility problems. They may not want to help Giants Causeway in any manner.

And after having a conversation with someone on the team I'd say that any connection to coolmore may get a horse on the blacklist.
But you never really know what they are going to do except spend a bunch of money on somebodies horses.

#23 10-03-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44

I obviously know near nothing about breeding, so can someone explain to me why you'd take a mare to FS for 40G when you could have Medaglia d'Oro for the same price. MD was a Triple Crown runner, sound, won GI races at 3 and 4, and is by another proven sire?

He didn't win at age two, and didnt show precociousness.
Hes also a HUGE risk because hes standing at a fledgling operation without a proven large broodmare base. He may not have gone to the best mares in his debut season, and that could effect future value of the offspring.

Scav · #24 10-03-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That was before the real hostilities began. Also Hennessey is already proven sire with fertility problems. They may not want to help Giants Causeway in any manner.

And after having a conversation with someone on the team I'd say that any connection to coolmore may get a horse on the blacklist.
But you never really know what they are going to do except spend a bunch of money on somebodies horses.

What the hell is the deal with this anyways? I remember reading about it but I didn't retain it....the only thing I retain in general is horses PP's anyways

paisjpq · #25 10-03-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But you never really know what they are going to do except spend a bunch of money on somebodies horses.

ain't that the truth..

Sightseek · #26 10-03-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

He didn't win at age two, and didnt show precociousness.
Hes also a HUGE risk because hes standing at a fledgling operation without a proven large broodmare base. He may not have gone to the best mares in his debut season, and that could effect future value of the offspring.

They may not have the best mares (not all farms can be Juddmonte

), but their marketing to get the best mares is down right brilliant.

#27 10-03-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

They may not have the best mares (not all farms can be Juddmonte

), but their marketing to get the best mares is down right brilliant.

Yeah I know all about it, you get to go back for free if you breed a stakes winner.
But Sightseek lets face it, sires who start out at a farm who is stocked with black type mares have an edge.

jpops757 · #28 10-03-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Hes got some mares, but will need more.
Hes quite enjoying watching the few he has bred run so far. Bad Boy Rising is a homebred whos been 2nd twice(one in a stakes race) and won a race in three starts.
He also had a horse break his maiden at Arlington this past summer who ran back off the board in the ARl Wash futurity that he also bred.
He really seems to LOVE watching these homebreds perform more than the ones hes bought.
Message Red produced a lovely Forest Wildcat this past spring, and she went to Offlee Wild this past year.
I know he has a full brother yearling to Bad Boy Rising as well.
Hes a remarkable businessman, and I think that he, like many others, have realized that trying to buy yearlings at the Sheikh-Coolmore domnated sales is a real uphill battle and an expensive one to wage.
More and more owners are looking to breed their own horses and buy fewer yearlings or two year olds in training.

Could this mean that some of the new "players" could be looking for some top quality mares that didnt make it to the track but were well bred. I guess the key is why they didnt make it to the track.

Cannon Shell · #29 10-03-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44

I obviously know near nothing about breeding, so can someone explain to me why you'd take a mare to FS for 40G when you could have Medaglia d'Oro for the same price. MD was a Triple Crown runner, sound, won GI races at 3 and 4, and is by another proven sire?

MDo is by a turf sire out of non-descript turf leaning female family. FS was more successful racing at shorter distances as a 2 yo which is what the buyers seem to want. Also FS's dam was a sprinter who has produced speed. He has a good combination of speed and stamina while MDo pedigree suggests long on turf.

Cannon Shell · #30 10-03-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

They may not have the best mares (not all farms can be Juddmonte

), but their marketing to get the best mares is down right brilliant.

Marketing may sell rain jackets but it usually spells desperation in the stallion business. If your mare produces a stake winner you wont necessarily need a free stud fee.

#31 10-03-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Marketing may sell rain jackets but it usually spells desperation in the stallion business. If your mare produces a stake winner you wont necessarily need a free stud fee.

LOL! Cannon Shell you read my mind.

Sightseek · #32 10-03-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Yeah I know all about it, you get to go back for free if you breed a stakes winner.
But Sightseek lets face it, sires who start out at a farm who is stocked with black type mares have an edge.

Oh no doubt, which is why Bellamy Road is doomed. The farm has no mares to support him and even I, the worlds biggest BR lover, wouldn't breed to him with all of the other options in Kentucky.

You also hit the nail on the head, First Sam's progeny have the potential to be track ready much sooner.

Sightseek · #33 10-03-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Marketing may sell rain jackets but it usually spells desperation in the stallion business. If your mare produces a stake winner you wont necessarily need a free stud fee.

They are trying to break into a market that is pretty exclusive to a very small amount of farms, of course they are desperate. But, you also can't stand there and not try something new to compete with them.

#34 10-03-2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Oh no doubt, which is why Bellamy Road is doomed. The farm has no mares to support him and even I, the worlds biggest BR lover, wouldn't breed to him with all of the other options in Kentucky.

You also hit the nail on the head, First Sam's progeny have the potential to be track ready much sooner.

In addition to that Sightseek, breeders usally take a wait and see attitude with sires who didn't run to their breeding. By that I mean those who showed traits not associated with their sire lines.
El Prado is just awesome as a sire but is predominantly associated with grass and route horses with little speed.
Medag was just an awesome horse, and he showed such a love for dirt and had very good speed, but hes about the only El Prado who ever did. That causes people to wonder if he was just a "freak", and freaks rarely reproduce themselves. They most often revert to siring horses more in line with their breeding.
I will tell you this though, If Medag has a good first couple of crops, and does in fact sire horses with speed who run on dirt, there is no limit as to how high his stud fee could end up being. Hes probably the stallion I see the most with "the skys the limit potential" if his first few crops work out ok.

Cannon Shell · #35 10-03-2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

They are trying to break into a market that is pretty exclusive to a very small amount of farms, of course they are desperate. But, you also can't stand there and not try something new to compete with them.

Uh what about doing what works in other businesses, competitive pricing.

paisjpq · #36 10-03-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh what about doing what works in other businesses, competitive pricing.

stop with the blasphemy!

Sightseek · #37 10-03-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh what about doing what works in other businesses, competitive pricing.

The only horse on their roster that I don't see as being very competitive is Unforgettable Max, expecially when you can breed to Giant's Causeway's brother for like $3,500. Not too sure what Hill N' Dale had Doneraile Court at as I was never a fan. Leroidanimaux, pedigree & performance...but you need a very correct mare to breed to him.

Sightseek · #38 10-03-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

In addition to that Sightseek, breeders usally take a wait and see attitude with sires who didn't run to their breeding. By that I mean those who showed traits not associated with their sire lines.
El Prado is just awesome as a sire but is predominantly associated with grass and route horses with little speed.
Medag was just an awesome horse, and he showed such a love for dirt and had very good speed, but hes about the only El Prado who ever did. That causes people to wonder if he was just a "freak", and freaks rarely reproduce themselves. They most often revert to siring horses more in line with their breeding.
I will tell you this though, If Medag has a good first couple of crops, and does in fact sire horses with speed who run on dirt, there is no limit as to how high his stud fee could end up being. Hes probably the stallion I see the most with "the skys the limit potential" if his first few crops work out ok.

Clearly you are forgetting El Prado's best of the best; CHINDI!

(I'm kidding, but he is a VERY cool horse)

I agree with you on all points.

Cannon Shell · #39 10-03-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The only horse on their roster that I don't see as being very competitive is Unforgettable Max, expecially when you can breed to Giant's Causeway's brother for like $3,500. Not too sure what Hill N' Dale had Doneraile Court at as I was never a fan. Leroidanimaux, pedigree & performance...but you need a very correct mare to breed to him.

Leroidesanimaux is probably a bit too high at $30k
Doneraile Court is ok at 10K
MDO is a bit pricey at 40K
Unforgetable Max should be 5k
Value Plus is ok at 10k

The prices are ok but not a bargin

randallscott35 · #40 10-03-2006, 11:28 AM

Crafty CT is your value in NY. That horse was very very good.