Ahhhhh she did it!!!! - Page 13

CSC · #**241** 06-15-2010, 03:29 PM

Incase it was missed, he also complimented Rachel, Blame, and Rail Trip.

Danzig · #**242** 06-15-2010, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Cannon,

It's one person's opinion but coming from Steve Davidowitz, you listen.

I believe for an absolute certainty that Zenyatta’s Vanity run reinforced the notion that she is the best race mare of my lifetime, if not one of the top horses of any age or sex since Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Ruffian and Spectacular Bid were dominating the 1970s.

Here's the entire read: http://beat.bodoglife.com/horseracin...ces-90865.html

all i can say is he must be very, very young. no, really, i have no idea how old he is....i do know he's giving new meaning to the word 'hyperbole'. i think she's good, very good actually. best race mare? no. not of my lifetime, of a three month olds lifetime, maybe. one of the top horses since those in the '70's??? i guess it depends on how long of a list you make.

randallscott35 · #**243** 06-15-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

all i can say is he must be very, very young. no, really, i have no idea how old he is....i do know he's giving new meaning to the word 'hyperbole'. i think she's good, very good actually. best race mare? no. not of my lifetime, of a three month olds lifetime, maybe. one of the top horses since those in the '70's??? i guess it depends on how long of a list you make.

He's old. He's lost it. Or never had it.

dalakhani · #**244** 06-15-2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

all i can say is he must be very, very young. no, really, i have no idea how old he is....i do know he's giving new meaning to the word 'hyperbole'. i think she's good, very good actually. best race mare? no. not of my lifetime, of a three month olds lifetime, maybe. one of the top horses since those in the '70's??? i guess it depends on how long of a list you make.

Thats pretty much what I was thinking. I mean, are we just talking horses that have run here or are we talking about european horses as well? Can you really put her up there with:

Holy Bull, Ghostzapper, Alysheba, skip away, sunday silence, easy goer, cigar?

Those are US based horses I came up with off the top of my head and I'm sure you can think of a bunch more. Internationally, you would be hardpressed to put her in with these Mares:

Zarkhava, islington, goldikova, makybe Diva, Sunline, ouija board

I love Z but at the same time you have to be realistic. I think I can put her with some of the best mares in the last 30 years to run in the US but i have a hard time putting her up there with those horses named.

DaTruth · #**245** 06-15-2010, 04:48 PM

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

Indian Charlie · #**246** 06-15-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

Maybe, No way, maybe, No way, No Way, No way, NO, Yes, no, No Way, probably not and maybe.

dalakhani · #**247** 06-15-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

Danzig · #**248** 06-15-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

thing is, when people say one of the best ever, i think they say that without thinking about the list of those that came before. after all, once you start giving details (devil's in the details) then it really starts sounding silly.

zenyatta has one hell of a win streak going...but i'm surprised that many talk about her streak in the context of pepper's pride-yet no one hesitated to mention her being on par with cigar...even worse, with citation. citation beat some incredibly talented horses to get that streak. her being mentioned in that respect (or more laughably so when they mentioned even man o war and secretariat couldn't boast a streak so long) is absolute blasphemy! it has taken her years to get this streak, with all but one race being in restricted stakes!! big cy won one of his races early on in his three year old season, pre-tc races, versus the previous years horse of the year, armed. he won the t.c., along with a race between the preakness and belmont, en route to that streak.

and now this? it's utterly laughable. trying to create a modern day superhorse is understandable, but it's far from realistic-especially when you start digging below the surface.

DaTruth · #**249** 06-15-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

The only ones that I would definitely mention her with are Serena's Song and Melair, but it is arguable whether she is better than Serena's Song. I will concede on Melair because her career was so short and she may have fizzled over time. The same goes for Rachel Alexandra in regards to the horses that I listed.

Danzig · #**250** 06-15-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

maybe she is, maybe she isn't. hard to say. but i think, based on what she's done, that those putting her in such rarified air as mr. davidowitz has, is really just unbelievable.

dalakhani · #**251** 06-15-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The only ones that I would definitely mention her with are Serena's Song and Melair, but it is arguable whether she is better than Serena's Song. I will concede on Melair because her career was so short and she may have fizzled over time. The same goes for Rachel Alexandra in regards to the horses that I listed.

How is Azeri better? I loved Azeri but i don't think you can stack her resume up against Zenyatta's.

Azeri never beat boys and she didnt win the BC classic.

DaTruth · #**252** 06-15-2010, 05:17 PM

Those who argue for Zenyatta's greatness often point to her win in the BCC. The problem with that is that when the BC was run at Santa Anita, it was not a true dirt test, as indicated by Euros running 1-2 in 2008 and Gio Ponti and a Euro running 2-3 last year.

Z's connections are doing a disservice with their creampuff schedule. I would respect her more if she came East and ran close LOSING efforts in the Whitney or Woodward or JCGC and in the BCCC than for any of her prior wins.

Danzig · #**253** 06-15-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

Those who argue for Zenyatta's greatness often point to her win in the BCC. The problem with that is that when the BC was run at Santa Anita, it was not a true dirt test, as indicated by Euros running 1-2 in 2008 and Gio Ponti and a Euro running 2-3 last year.

Z's connections are doing a disservice with their creampuff schedule. I would respect her more if she came East and ran close LOSING efforts in the Whitney or Woodward or JCGC and in the BCCC than for any of her prior wins.

and gio certainly hasn't shown much since that race, has he? is winchester an all time great because he beat gio recently? of course not. now, it was obviously zenyattas best race competition-wise, but she didn't beat summer bird any more handily than rachel had earlier.
the streak is her claim to fame. but as i said elsewhere, consistency isn't greatness-if it was, pepper's pride would be just as great. with her winning 17, is she now better than citation? again, no.

we have so few really good horses appearing any more, which is a shame in itself. but making her out to be some type of amazing horse isn't going to fix that.

CSC · #**254** 06-15-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

all i can say is he must be very, very young. no, really, i have no idea how old he is....i do know he's giving new meaning to the word 'hyperbole'. i think she's good, very good actually. best race mare? no. not of my lifetime, of a three month olds lifetime, maybe. one of the top horses since those in the '70's??? i guess it depends on how long of a list you make.

Danzig, he's actually had 40 + yrs experience watching and handicapping horses, he has written a book called “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” and was featured in a Q&A in the N.Y Times.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ve-davidowitz/

DaTruth · #**255** 06-15-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How is Azeri better? I loved Azeri but i don't think you can stack her resume up against Zenyatta's.

Azeri never beat boys and she didnt win the BC classic.

True, she never beat boys. Zenyatta has never beaten males on real dirt either. I just think Azeri beat a better group of mares than Zenyatta has: Sightseek, Summer Colony, Imperial Gesture, Take Charge Lady, etc.

Danzig · #**256** 06-15-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Danzig, he's actually had 40 + yrs experience watching and handicapping horses, he has written a book called “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” and was featured in a Q&A in the N.Y Times.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ve-davidowitz/

well, we all know about what opinions are like. i disagree with his on this for sure.

DaTruth · #**257** 06-15-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Danzig, he's actually had 40 + yrs experience watching horses, he has written a book called “Betting Thoroughbreds for the 21st Century.” and was featured in a Q&A in the N.Y Times.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ve-davidowitz/

Davidowitz is a widely respected racing writer, which makes his statement even more outlandish as I expected him to show better judgment.

CSC · #**258** 06-15-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

Davidowitz is a widely respected racing writer, which makes his statement even more outlandish as I expected him to show better judgment.

That's fair enough, there are enough that more or less agree with him like Steve Crist. That's 2 that probably have more combined knowledge in the game than probably in this entire room. Well that is hyperbole to be honest but not too far fetched.

2Hot4TV · #**259** 06-15-2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

I've seen them all and would like to see that race.

17 times Zenyatta has found a way to get to the wire and if she were to race against this group I think she would be in the photo for the the win.

DaTruth · #**260** 06-15-2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

That's fair enough, there are enough that more or less agree with him like Steve Crist. That's 2 that probably have more combined knowledge in the game than probably in this entire room. Well that is hyperbole to be honest but not too far fetched.

The first edition of Davidowitz's Betting Thoroughbreds was an early read when I was cutting my teeth in this game.