Coming to a close.....

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The Rudy Rod stories will always jump up with something that is providing them an edge, but it never lasts. They get stopped and the latest innovation is added to the list of super testing.

This assumes that RUDY is 'working alone', so to speak. What if he's just working for a connection that has shown similarly incredible results for trainers other than RUDY -- like the Dutrows and Brown?

So, the JUICE might just be coming from a higher source (than just a lowly trainer).

And, if this connection runs a lot of horses at multiple tracks in a period where filling races is getting more and more difficult, do you think THEY 'get stopped'?

Doubtful

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

This assumes that RUDY is 'working alone', so to speak. What if he's just working for a connection that has shown similarly incredible results for trainers other than RUDY -- like the Dutrows and Brown?

So, the JUICE might just be coming from a higher source (than just a lowly trainer).

And, if this connection runs a lot of horses at multiple tracks in a period where filling races is getting more and more difficult, do you think THEY 'get stopped'?

Doubtful

You really think Chad Brown is using?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You really think Chad Brown is using?

Well, the fact that Silver Timber was ready for the dog food truck just before Brown got him and is STILL going strong -- better than at any point previously in his career; and that he got a win out of Gimme Credit (though this was more about the bad ride on the favorite than anything else) kind of leans me in that direction. However, I'm looking at the connection that Brown, RUDY and the Dutrows have in common. Just my opinion, of course. What do I know?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Well, the fact that Silver Timber was ready for the dog food truck just before Brown got him and is STILL going strong -- better than at any point previously in his career; and that he got a win out of Gimme Credit (though this was more about the bad ride on the favorite than anything else) kind of leans me in that direction. However, I'm looking at the connection that Brown, RUDY and the Dutrows have in common. Just my opinion, of course. What do I know?

I suppose you're referring to the common ownership of those horses of Michael Dubb. As far as the two you mentioned, Gimme Credit was a hopeless underachiever with no nose for the wire at all. The fact that Chad got a win out of him at Monmouth is probably not suspicious, unless of course he becomes a graded stakes horse soon.

As far as Silver Timber, Linda Rice put him through the gauntlet in 2008 with five starts in ten weeks before dropping him in for a tag at Gulfstream. Chad Brown took him from there and things started to turn around, perhaps something in the horse's training or something else physical.

I'm naive as to what types of methods trainers could be using to procure an edge. However, Chad Brown's two supposed examples of being a "user" pale in comparison to me to Rudy's numerous feats and that of the Dutrows through the years.

Worth noting that Dubb is using Asmussen now and they recently claimed Cagey Girl, who looked like the second coming of Citronnade in a recent NY bred allowance and is going in tomorrow's 8th at Belmont.

NT

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I'm naive as to what types of methods trainers could be using to procure an edge.
NT

I have no idea what the methods are. All I can note is the effect of these methods: horses that just don't stop in the lane -- no matter what trip they've gotten to that point. This is prominently on display, though not with the consistency of previous years, in horses that Pletcher runs. And it was probably the most evident in horses that Joradan ran up at WO. Of course, after his POSITIVE last year, most of his horses now stop, like normal horses would, after hard trips. We all pretty much have enough experience to know that if it's not about the trip or a track bias then it's got to be about that other thing. Which is fine with me. When one of these individuals has a horse in the race, I just take a couple of extra combinations to cover my ass or pass the race. Not like this is any different than what was happening in the '80's with Oscar and Pete, and the others.

[cabvmd]

Dear Dee Tee gang,

I have read many of the blogs and seen a lot of opinions from many of you on all different subjects, but until you live the life as I have, from both sides of the fence, ie as an attending Veterinarian (hopper) to a state veterinarian (stopper) you have no idea of what is going on in this business. The backstretch and which trainers uses which attending veterinarian are the keys to the whole system. This is where all the work is done, the race oval just shows the results. I have worked in both flat and harness racing and believe me, the harness guys make the thoroughbred guys look like Pollyannas.

What has really changed the most in the 25 years I have been in the industry is the horsemanship is basicaly non-exhistant PERIOD. And from that I have also seen changes in the horses them selves, less bone and more speed and that equals all the problems we see. These "new" era of trainer trains the owners, not the horses. They find clients with money and interest in the sport, but absolulty no knowledge of the creature they are all trying to make money off of, the horse. So the owners shell out huge amounts of money turn the horses over to the trainers, keep paying and paying. The breeders, in order to survive breed this type of horse becuse that is what sells. There are no more or very few brood mare dynasy farms where stong families of race horses are kept to improve the breed, it is just race and get sold off, many do not care once the horses are no longer raceable.

I left my position as an attending veterinarian because I like horses too much. I still wanted to be in racing so I went to the state job, hoping that I could be a voice for the horses since they are unable to speak for themselves.

I hepled a good many of them, got quite a few new homes off of the track, but it wore me down. I left to pursue another way to make a living because I just could not stand to see all that was happening. I still substitute as state vet and I still have may own part time practice where I care for pet horses, many of them retired racers, but when I go no the backside now I am very sad.


Some of these trainers that many of you regal or dispise are all up to the same stuff, some are just more clever about it.

I have examined horses legs and watched them move when they are not "warmed up" the way the public sees them trained by almost every prominant trainer of the last 25 years and because of this I have a very good first hand view of "good" verses "bad" trainers. These are all the big ones that have most of the winners each year and get their names and pictures in the papers.


When and if I ever can stop working I will sit down and write a book about all I have seen and know about allof this, I will change all the names to protect the guilty.

I will always love watching horses race, it is pure to the point that even with the medication poroblems, they still are horses, running because it is in their blood and their souls since they first became partners with people. Give them the chance and they will do their all for us and many do right up to the end.

Sorry for the soap box, but I like racing more for the race than the wagering. I do wager occasionally but I could watch 1000 races and not bet on one (and I have done it for years) and still get great joy out of the experience. Many of you more cynical folks will think I am a sap but that is OK. This is just how I have felt about racing since I was a kid.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cabvmd

What has really changed the most in the 25 years I have been in the industry is the horsemanship is basicaly non-exhistant PERIOD.

When you follow just about any track and see how many horses are asked to sprint, route, turf, and poly, with no consistent distance or surface, just a mixture of all these, the above is evident. When I see so many Southern CAL trainers winning with 1st time stretchouts (going two turns) -- and winning by OUTKICKING, from off the pace, routers -- the above is evident. There's a reason why world class 100 meter runners aren't running in world class distance races. (Or why mediocre distance runners are able to beat great sprinters going a distance.) Well, there's a reason NORMALLY. This doesn't apply in Tbred racing.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

As far as Silver Timber, Linda Rice put him through the gauntlet in 2008 with five starts in ten weeks before dropping him in for a tag at Gulfstream.

NT

I laughed.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I laughed.

For the fragile modern thoroughbred, and for a horse with obvious health problems, five races in ten weeks was probably a lot.

NT

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

For the fragile modern thoroughbred, and for a horse with obvious health problems, five races in ten weeks was probably a lot.

NT

So, your premise is that a world class turf sprint trainer like Rice would over run a horse (clearly looking to get it claimed) that had the potential to become a main turf sprint player? And, run races it had never run in the past. Clearly, Rice was blind when it came to this late bloomer.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

For the fragile modern thoroughbred, and for a horse with obvious health problems, five races in ten weeks was probably a lot.

NT

the whole gist of 5 times in 10 weeks being a lot is everything that is wrong with the sport in the first place.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by cabvmd

I will always love watching horses race, it is pure to the point that even with the medication poroblems, they still are horses, running because it is in their blood and their souls since they first became partners with people. Give them the chance and they will do their all for us and many do right up to the end.

Sorry for the soap box, but I like racing more for the race than the wagering. I do wager occasionally but I could watch 1000 races and not bet on one (and I have done it for years) and still get great joy out of the experience. Many of you more cynical folks will think I am a sap but that is OK. This is just how I have felt about racing since I was a kid.

If you're a sap, then so am I. I love the sport, but primarily because I love the horses. The inkling that so many are first bred, and second trained, irresponsibly, is what I believe has driven a lot of the general public from horseracing.

You should do a spot on At The Races. I would like to hear more.

Cheers.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He's kidding you for telling us about the big P4 hit at Los Al now...

Didn't get a chance to respond yesterday, but wanted to. I never thought I'd ever get to a place where I couldn't care less about the MLB box scores or the batting average list or miss a Championship or World Series game. Same with NFL action. But I grew so tired of pro sports, (other than the NHL which remains the most pleasant professional sport), that I barely pay attention.

I was a season ticket holder of the Reds, Royals and Expos while living in Cincinnati, Kansas City and Montreal. I was an Eagles season ticket holder in the Vet (Sec. 729, Row 13) for 14 years commuting to Philly on Sundays and Mondays from Montreal and later Saratoga the whole time. And I had Direct TV to watch he road games. Last year I may have watched only 6-7 of the Birds' 16 games.

Point is, ardor ebbs and flows, and passions go in various directions. As I've gotten older, racing has become more interesting and enticing to me than team sports. I'm as surprised by it as you seem to be with your declining interest in racing and wagering.

You may not have acknowledged that there were people 'taking an edge' when you first got involved as a horseplayer, but there were. The fact is that there is better policing of the sport now than ever in its' history, and more progress has been made in the area in the last 5 years than in the previous 30. The Rudy Rod stories will always jump up with something that is providing them an edge, but it never lasts. They get stopped and the latest innovation is added to the list of super testing.

If you really examine it, I'd expect you'll find more underlying reasons for being drawn away from racing than the less-widespread-than-people-think drug issue.

A couple of things: 1. Is that guy insinuating that I made up hitting the Los Al pick 4? If so, that is kind of funny. If people really make up big hits on a forum to gain favor with people they don't know....that is pretty sad.

2. Your points are well taken. I love horse racing and always have. I just hate where the game is today. I also hate that I don't trust any of the great equine accomplishments any longer and probably never will. I've been jaded by what I've seen. That's what makes it very tough. Even when losing, I've always been able to fall back on the fact that I loved the "sport" of racing AND the intellect needed to play the game. Both of those areas are being seriously hindered at the moment.

3. I don't buy the "better policing". I know what I see in the PP's and when trainers are winning at 28, 30, 35, 45, 60% across the country....there is a serious problem. In addition, how about explaining the Dick Clark phenomenon. This guy would win at a 30% clip at PRM for years on end. He was automatic. This year....4% in about 162 starts. Obviously, he was caught and has reverted to not using what he had in the past. Point is....The difference between using something to get and edge and not is the difference between winning 30% and 4%? If so....wow!!

Any way you slice it....I just don't see the game moving in the right direction. There are a lot of good people, smart people, involved and they alone have kept the game afloat. I believe the people that don't care about the long term health of the sport will run it over and into the ground. And I believe this to be sooner than later.

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

A couple of things: 1. Is that guy insinuating that I made up hitting the Los Al pick 4? If so, that is kind of funny. If people really make up big hits on a forum to gain favor with people they don't know....that is pretty sad.

2. Your points are well taken. I love horse racing and always have. I just hate where the game is today. I also hate that I don't trust any of the great equine accomplishments any longer and probably never will. I've been jaded by what I've seen. That's what makes it very tough. Even when losing, I've always been able to fall back on the fact that I loved the "sport" of racing AND the intellect needed to play the game. Both of those areas are being seriously hindered at the moment.

3. I don't buy the "better policing". I know what I see in the PP's and when trainers are winning at 28, 30, 35, 45, 60% across the country....there is a serious problem. In addition, how about explaining the Dick Clark phenomenon. This guy would win at a 30% clip at PRM for years on end. He was automatic. This year....4% in about 162 starts. Obviously, he was caught and has reverted to not using what he had in the past. Point is....The difference between using something to get and edge and not is the difference between winning 30% and 4%? If so....wow!!

Any way you slice it....I just don't see the game moving in the right direction. There are a lot of good people, smart people, involved and they alone have kept the game afloat. I believe the people that don't care about the long term health of the sport will run it over and into the ground. And I believe this to be sooner than later.

I was JUST KIDDING!!!!! I would however, using cabvmd's statements, make a motion that we include the attending vet's win percentages in programs from now on.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

I was JUST KIDDING!!!!! I would however, using cabvmd's statements, make a motion that we include the attending vet's win percentages in programs from now on.

LOVE IT!! Agree 100% with that. Man, wouldn't that be interesting.