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  #81  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickhorse
Settle down, I'm not criticizing teams for trying to win. I'm criticizing teams for being too impatient and sacrificing their future for a quick fix. Better to be a contender year after year than to sell out for an unsuccessful title run.

The better franchises have it figured out. Build your team for the long haul. Beat your opponents in the draft. I will concede that once in awhile you might have to pick up a free agent during the season. The Dodgers picking up Manny midseason was not a a typical move for them.

The Red Sox are a great example of building a solid team via the draft.

Patience is still important in building a successful sports franchise just as it is in managing a stable.
But they get 2 draft picks when the players fail to resign with them so I fail to see how that is not beneficial to building a team via the draft. The Red Sox added Ortiz, Beckett, Lowell, Varitek, Drew, Schilling, Damon, Manny, Dice K, etc were all added via trade or free agency so the thought that the Red Sox have built mainly through the draft is fiction though they have done much better in player development than the Yankees. Milwaukee hardly sold out in trading LaPorta for Sabathia. He was the only player of signifigance they gave up and wasnt a great fit on the current roster in the immediate future as his only 2 positions are all blocked by superior players. Milwaukee made an attempt to win when they had the chance, they did what every team in that position should do.
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  #82  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dalakhani
Okay, you gave me Mattingly (I admit...one of my favorites) and Eddie Murray (one of the most underrated players ever to play the game). Lets try a couple of more. I won't get cheap and try to include Pete Rose.

Cecil Cooper. Please dont tell me Tex is better than Cecil Cooper was during his prime.
Cooper was a great hitter in 4 seasons but was pretty ordinary most of his career. He made a lot of contact but rarely walked and does not have the power numbers that tex has. Texiera is a better player than Cooper. Cooper, like Mattingly had a pretty short prime and when looked at over his entire career comes up short.
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  #83  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Cooper was a great hitter in 4 seasons but was pretty ordinary most of his career. He made a lot of contact but rarely walked and does not have the power numbers that tex has. Texiera is a better player than Cooper. Cooper, like Mattingly had a pretty short prime and when looked at over his entire career comes up short.
But Cooper was the superior defender.

If you are going to take Texiera over Bagwell by calling into question the era in which Bagwell put up his numbers, shouldnt we then give more credit to guys like Cooper who put up big numbers in a dead ball era?
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  #84  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:40 PM
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Don't know how you can say a guy with this post season production is anything special:

2b-zero
3b-zero
hr-zero
rbi-1
run scoring hits in the post-zero

The guy has mainly played on bad pitching teams in Texas. His stats are going to be highly increased due to all the garbage time at bats he had there. I know how hard it is to hit on good pitching teams that play in a pitchers park. Just look at what happens to players that come to the Dodgers. Manny is a freak. Part of the reason the fans were so in love with the guy is because players rarely do that when they come to this team. Far as I am concerned, this TEX has had a huge half of a season with the Halos. Other than that, he hasn't been any star. Not like he's a difference maker. Halos were going to the post anyways. They got him for power in the post, and he provided zero power in the post.

Last edited by SCUDSBROTHER : 12-25-2008 at 07:00 PM.
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  #85  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
But Cooper was the superior defender.

If you are going to take Texiera over Bagwell by calling into question the era in which Bagwell put up his numbers, shouldnt we then give more credit to guys like Cooper who put up big numbers in a dead ball era?
Have you seen Texiera play? You keep calling these guys superior to him in the field and I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. He is a superior defender. Cooper really only had 4 season where he was at the top of the league offensively regardless of era's. Tex iera came into the league as a starter and has hit at the highest levels from the start.
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  #86  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Don't know how you can say a guy with this post season production is anything special:

2b-zero
3b-zero
hr-zero
rbi-1
run scoring hits in the post-zero

The guy has mainly played on bad pitching teams in Texas. His stats are going to be highly increased due to all the garbage time at bats he had there. I know how hard it is to hit on good pitching teams that play in a pitchers park. Just look at what happens to players that come to the Dodgers. Manny is a freak. Part of the reason the fans were so in love with the guy is because players rarely do that when they come to this team. Far as I am concerned, this TEX has had a huge half of a season with the Halos. Other than that he hasn't been any star. Not like he's a difference maker. Halos were going to the post anyways. They got him for power in the post, and he provided zero power in the post.
Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.
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  #87  
Old 12-25-2008, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.
You saw what happened when your boy Andruw came to a team that opposing pitchers love to beat. You thought he would come right over and do the same thing he did for Atlanta. Different situation when players come here.
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  #88  
Old 12-25-2008, 07:13 PM
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He's maybe worth 13-15 mil a year. Yanks overpaid by 60-80 mil. Hogs just want to eat. They aren't worried about what it costs to eat.
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  #89  
Old 12-25-2008, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
You saw what happened when your boy Andruw came to a team that opposing pitchers love to beat. You thought he would come right over and do the same thing he did for Atlanta. Different situation when players come here.
Jones ate himself out of the lineup. Had nothing to do with what team he was on
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  #90  
Old 12-25-2008, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Have you seen Texiera play? You keep calling these guys superior to him in the field and I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. He is a superior defender. Cooper really only had 4 season where he was at the top of the league offensively regardless of era's. Tex iera came into the league as a starter and has hit at the highest levels from the start.
ive seen Texiera play plenty of times but obviously not as many times as you have or as many times as i will see him play this year. Its kind of silly to be going back and forth about defense in regards to first baseman anyway dont you think? Not to say that it isnt important but its more gravy than anything else when a first baseman is actually good with the glove. All of the guys mentioned were good with the glove. Most of the time defense is rep anyway. Hernandez is reputed to be the best ever to play the position but there is really no way to measure it.

Comparing the first six full seasons (that is all texiera has played) Frank Thomas was also better.
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  #91  
Old 12-25-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.
Well, there would be a bigger sample size if he showed any power against the SOX. Wasn't exactly the difference maker to get the Rangers past the Halos n' A's either(so he couldn't increase sample size there either.) This isn't exactly a momentum creator like a Victorino etc.You're a Lackey/Tex fan. Both have been going home quickly in the post. Those are Grade 2 players. YOU EVER SEE A BIG WHITE LURCH YA DIDN'T LIKE?
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  #92  
Old 12-25-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
ive seen Texiera play plenty of times but obviously not as many times as you have or as many times as i will see him play this year. Its kind of silly to be going back and forth about defense in regards to first baseman anyway dont you think? Not to say that it isnt important but its more gravy than anything else when a first baseman is actually good with the glove. All of the guys mentioned were good with the glove. Most of the time defense is rep anyway. Hernandez is reputed to be the best ever to play the position but there is really no way to measure it.

Comparing the first six full seasons (that is all texiera has played) Frank Thomas was also better.
Wes Parker is considered the best fielding 1st baseman but I will have to admit I didnt see too much of him. Frank Thomas was a great hitter but was so awful in the field he only played 1st more than 100 games 3 times. He would be considered more of a DH.
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  #93  
Old 12-25-2008, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Well, there would be a bigger sample size if he showed any power against the SOX. Wasn't exactly the difference maker to get the Rangers past the Halos n' A's either(so he couldn't increase sample size there either.) This isn't exactly a momentum creator like a Victorino etc.You're a Lackey/Tex fan. Both have been going home quickly in the post. Those are Grade 2 players. YOU EVER SEE A BIG WHITE LURCH YA DIDN'T LIKE?
Lackey does have a ring doesnt he? Post season numbers are not meaningful unless taken in context. If the hitter behind the player in question is weak or not hitting well then wont the first player rarely see a good pitch? All Texiera has done since hitting the majors as a starter is hit at a high level and continue to get better. I am no huge fan of his but do appreciate his abilities and realize that he hasnt had the mainstream exposure that a player of his statur should have. He is a hall of fame caliber player if he maintains a similar pace for 7 or 8 more years. He isnt as good as Pujols but exactly who is? By the way Tex should pass Garvey in HR's midseason of 2010.
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  #94  
Old 12-25-2008, 09:05 PM
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YEP, AS A LONGSHOT(with little pressure from expectations put on him) Lackey did well. Puts him in the same category as Broxton n' Billingsley. He failed in the huge game against the White Sox in the 2005 ALCS. Got his tail kicked by Boston in the 2007 post. Failed terribly in August 2006, and the 1st half of September of 2006(failed to help put pressure on the A's.) Your lil allstar team has Tex at 1st, and Lackey pitching. You gunna have ARod too? I'll take other types. I'll take Victorino in center. Furcal at short. I'll take Loney at 1st(a better fielder than TEX LURCH,) because he is icey kool under pressure. Manny in Left. Pedroia at 2nd.
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  #95  
Old 12-25-2008, 09:16 PM
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I'm going to make a deal with ESPN and have them say I'm a FA and teams are looking to sign me. If I'm lucky the Yanks will sign me
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  #96  
Old 12-25-2008, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Wes Parker is considered the best fielding 1st baseman but I will have to admit I didnt see too much of him. Frank Thomas was a great hitter but was so awful in the field he only played 1st more than 100 games 3 times. He would be considered more of a DH.
Not over the first 6 years of his career. During that time, he was the starting all star first baseman twice and selected five times as a first baseman. Yes, he was awful in the field but again...its first base. Thats where they put guys that can hit but cant play defense. His TWO mvps were when he was still playing primarily first base.

His numbers over the first six years of his career Dwarf Texiera's. Add Thomas to Mattingly and Murray.

Todd Helton is compelling. No?
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  #97  
Old 12-26-2008, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Not over the first 6 years of his career. During that time, he was the starting all star first baseman twice and selected five times as a first baseman. Yes, he was awful in the field but again...its first base. Thats where they put guys that can hit but cant play defense. His TWO mvps were when he was still playing primarily first base.

His numbers over the first six years of his career Dwarf Texiera's. Add Thomas to Mattingly and Murray.

Todd Helton is compelling. No?
Thomas was primarily a DH. All star voyes are irrelevant considering Ortiz has been voted as 1st baseman when he almost never plays 1st. And defense does count towards a players standing and Thomas was a really, really bad fielder. Heltons numbers are extremely biased due to Coors but he and texiera are very similar.
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