Bay Meadows "an upscale shopping and residential site"

[joeydb]

That's what was in the seventh paragraph of this article forcasting the demise of Hollywood Park. Unbelieveable. Also linked to from Paulick Report.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...e/6531237.html

Sam Houston's President also said of the closure: "This is a normal part of business — great brands and products come and go." Pardon me, but how many new tracks have you guys seen lately? I'm not sure which is worse: the lack of alarm over Hollywood Park going away or the delusions surrounding the existing tracks that "everything is just fine -- not for everybody else, but for us."

[dalakhani]

This is going to sound crazy from a horse racing fan but businesses, sports, buildings, etc do come and go.

Yankee stadium is gone. Boston Garden is gone. In the realm of historic venues hollywood park is but a pimple compard to those places. Those places were replaced by newer buildings and they draw crowds and make a profit. If they didnt, the old stadiums simply would have been closed and turned into shopping malls, condos, office buildings,etc and not replaced.

The parks that will survive will do so because they provide a product that people desire and because they are economically sustainable. Sure this is sad but there really isnt anything anyone can do. We Americans are capitalists.

[joeydb]

Yeah I am a capitalist too, but all I am saying is that the worth of large parcels of land near large population is a very high bar for ANY business to reach.

I live near Philly, and if it wasn't bought by the Park Service, Independence Hall would have been replaced by a multistory office building a long time ago.

The thing that really caught my eye is that Bay Meadows is still, currently, a pile of uncleared rubble. It wasn't completed as a shopping district last I heard, and Steve just talked about that maybe a month and a half ago.

[the_fat_man]

'you just can't stop the time'

luckily, with the advent of online wagering, some of us could really care less about WHERE the track we bet on is

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

'you just can't stop the time'

luckily, with the advent of online wagering, some of us could really care less about WHERE the track we bet on is

some handicappers might prefer HP's surface though

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Yeah I am a capitalist too, but all I am saying is that the worth of large parcels of land near large population is a very high bar for ANY business to reach.

I live near Philly, and if it wasn't bought by the Park Service, Independence Hall would have been replaced by a multistory office building a long time ago.

The thing that really caught my eye is that Bay Meadows is still, currently, a pile of uncleared rubble. It wasn't completed as a shopping district last I heard, and Steve just talked about that maybe a month and a half ago.

We horse racing fans tend to overvalue our sport's impact on American Culture as a whole. Independence Hall? I would say the home of the Liberty Bell is a whole lot more important than the home of Lava Man.

You bring up an interesting point though about real estate. Why should horse racing be any different than any other business? Charlestown Races and Slots sits in Jefferson County West Virginia. It is about an hour and a half from Downtown Washington DC. It is a thriving operation. The fact is that the value is in the operation itself and not the land its on.

There will always be horse racing in California in one form or another. Popularity and demand will dictate the scope just like any other business. One of my favorite tracks in the country, Arlington Park, is not even 20 years old and a fire paved the way for one of the finest facilities in the country. Perhaps it will take the closing of some of these traditional venues to eventually pave the way for better venues.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This is going to sound crazy from a horse racing fan but businesses, sports, buildings, etc do come and go.

Yankee stadium is gone. Boston Garden is gone. In the realm of historic venues hollywood park is but a pimple compard to those places. Those places were replaced by newer buildings and they draw crowds and make a profit. If they didnt, the old stadiums simply would have been closed and turned into shopping malls, condos, office buildings,etc and not replaced.

The parks that will survive will do so because they provide a product that people desire and because they are economically sustainable. Sure this is sad but there really isnt anything anyone can do. We Americans are capitalists.

I disagree with your assessment about the significance of Hollywood Park's history. Hollywood Park has been there for over 70 years. There is tremendous history there. They used to get over 60,000 people out there on big days. It used to be a big deal to go out to Hollywood Park. That was the place to be back in the 1970s and 1980s. Today you see all of these celebrities at Laker games. In the old days, the track was where all the celebrities would go. It will be a sad day if Hollywood Park closes.

From what the people on the TOC have been telling me, they think it is unlikely that Hollywood Park will close. In this economy, they don't think that there is any way that the developers will be able to raise the $2 billion needed to fund the development project. They think there will be racing at Hollywood Park for at least another 2-3 years. I sure hope they are right.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

some handicappers might prefer HP's surface though

never cared for it. now that its poly its even worse. thats why i don't care if it closes. not that racing was not in trouble already but the poly tracks did not help. i know it hurts the handle because people don't want to bet them. like me and alot of my friends.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I disagree with your assessment about the significance of Hollywood Park's history. Hollywood Park has been there for over 70 years. There is tremendous history there. They used to get over 60,000 people out there on big days. It used to be a big deal to go out to Hollywood Park. That was the place to be back in the 1970s and 1980s. Today you see all of these celebrities at Laker games. In the old days, the track was where all the celebrities would go. It will be a sad day if Hollywood Park closes.

So because Hollywood Park use to draw crowds its supposed to be considered historically significant? Really? Is there any more historical significance to hollywood park than Yankee stadium? I dont think its even close. Hollywood Park isnt even in the same stratosphere as the old Yankee stadium in terms significance. The old Yankee stadium was still packing them in when they closed it.

I dont deny that it will be sad when it closes...to us horse racing fans. My point is that there arent too many of us left and the number certainly isnt growing. And if thats the case, do you think a vast majority of people really care if Hollywood Park closes?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So because Hollywood Park use to draw crowds its supposed to be considered historically significant? Really? Is there any more historical significance to hollywood park than Yankee stadium? I dont think its even close. Hollywood Park isnt even in the same stratosphere as the old Yankee stadium in terms significance. The old Yankee stadium was still packing them in when they closed it.

I dont deny that it will be sad when it closes...to us horse racing fans. My point is that there arent too many of us left and the number certainly isnt growing. And if thats the case, do you think a vast majority of people really care if Hollywood Park closes?

Here is some of Hollywood Park's history. I guess it's subjective whether you think it's historically significant or not.

Opening Day — June 10, 1938
The Hollywood Turf Club was formed under the chairmanship of Jack L. Warner (of the Warner Brothers film corporation). The 600 original shareholders included many stars, directors and producers of the film world, such as Al Jolson and Raoul Walsh (two of the original directors of the board); Joan Blondell; Ronald Colman; Walt Disney; Bing Crosby; Sam Goldwyn; Darryl Zanuck; George Jessel; Ralph Bellamy; Hal Wallis; Anatole Litvak; Hunt Stromberg; Wallace Beery; Irene Dunne, and the late Mervyn LeRoy (director of Hollywood Park from 1941 until his death in 1986).

Legendary Seabiscuit Takes Inaugural Gold Cup
The legendary Seabiscuit was victorious in 1938’s inaugural running of the Hollywood Gold Cup, the track’s signature race which would be won 11 times by Thoroughbreds distinguished as Horse of the Year: 1938, Seabiscuit; 1940, Challedon; 1951, Citation; 1956, Swaps; 1957, Round Table; 1971, Ack Ack; 1979, Affirmed; 1987, Ferdinand; 1990, Criminal Type; 1995, Cigar; 1998, Skip Away

For more on the history of HP, go to:
http://hollywoodpark.com/about-history

Hollywood Park certainly doesn't draw huge crowds any more. But I don't know if that makes HP any less historically significant.

You compared HP to some places that were torn down and rebuilt. If HP was going to be rebuilt, then I don't think people would be nearly as upset.

[dalakhani]

[quote=Rupert Pupkin]Here is some of Hollywood Park's history. I guess it's subjective whether you think it's historically significant or not.

Opening Day — June 10, 1938
The Hollywood Turf Club was formed under the chairmanship of Jack L. Warner (of the Warner Brothers film corporation). The 600 original shareholders included many stars, directors and producers of the film world, such as Al Jolson and Raoul Walsh (two of the original directors of the board); Joan Blondell; Ronald Colman; Walt Disney; Bing Crosby; Sam Goldwyn; Darryl Zanuck; George Jessel; Ralph Bellamy; Hal Wallis; Anatole Litvak; Hunt Stromberg; Wallace Beery; Irene Dunne, and the late Mervyn LeRoy (director of Hollywood Park from 1941 until his death in 1986).

Legendary Seabiscuit Takes Inaugural Gold Cup
The legendary Seabiscuit was victorious in 1938’s inaugural running of the Hollywood Gold Cup, the track’s signature race which would be won 11 times by Thoroughbreds distinguished as Horse of the Year: 1938, Seabiscuit; 1940, Challedon; 1951, Citation; 1956, Swaps; 1957, Round Table; 1971, Ack Ack; 1979, Affirmed; 1987, Ferdinand; 1990, Criminal Type; 1995, Cigar; 1998, Skip Away

For more on the history of HP, go to:
http://hollywoodpark.com/about-history

Hollywood Park certainly doesn't draw huge crowds any more. But I don't know if that makes HP any less historically significant.

You compared HP to some places that were torn down and rebuilt. If HP was going to be rebuilt, then I don't think people would be nearly as upset.[/QUOTE]

Isnt that the point though? If Hollywood Park were significant to all but a minority, it would be restored, replaced or moved. No?

If baseball was in the same shape as a sport as horse racing, do you think a new yankee stadium would be going up regardless of history? It would be suffering the same fate as hollywood park.

[Rupert Pupkin]

[quote=dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Here is some of Hollywood Park's history. I guess it's subjective whether you think it's historically significant or not.

Opening Day — June 10, 1938
The Hollywood Turf Club was formed under the chairmanship of Jack L. Warner (of the Warner Brothers film corporation). The 600 original shareholders included many stars, directors and producers of the film world, such as Al Jolson and Raoul Walsh (two of the original directors of the board); Joan Blondell; Ronald Colman; Walt Disney; Bing Crosby; Sam Goldwyn; Darryl Zanuck; George Jessel; Ralph Bellamy; Hal Wallis; Anatole Litvak; Hunt Stromberg; Wallace Beery; Irene Dunne, and the late Mervyn LeRoy (director of Hollywood Park from 1941 until his death in 1986).

Legendary Seabiscuit Takes Inaugural Gold Cup
The legendary Seabiscuit was victorious in 1938’s inaugural running of the Hollywood Gold Cup, the track’s signature race which would be won 11 times by Thoroughbreds distinguished as Horse of the Year: 1938, Seabiscuit; 1940, Challedon; 1951, Citation; 1956, Swaps; 1957, Round Table; 1971, Ack Ack; 1979, Affirmed; 1987, Ferdinand; 1990, Criminal Type; 1995, Cigar; 1998, Skip Away

For more on the history of HP, go to:
http://hollywoodpark.com/about-history

Hollywood Park certainly doesn't draw huge crowds any more. But I don't know if that makes HP any less historically significant.

You compared HP to some places that were torn down and rebuilt. If HP was going to be rebuilt, then I don't think people would be nearly as upset.[/QUOTE]

Isnt that the point though? If Hollywood Park were significant to all but a minority, it would be restored, replaced or moved. No?

If baseball was in the same shape as a sport as horse racing, do you think a new yankee stadium would be going up regardless of history? It would be suffering the same fate as hollywood park.

I agree with you. Horseracing is obviously not that popular any more. I think their average on-track attendance is about 5,000 at HP. That obviously doesn't compare to baseball teams that are drawing 40,000 a night.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

'you just can't stop the time'

luckily, with the advent of online wagering, some of us could really care less about WHERE the track we bet on is

I completely agree!!

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by dalakhani-history[/url

If baseball was in the same shape as a sport as horse racing, do you think a new yankee stadium would be going up regardless of history? It would be suffering the same fate as hollywood park.

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Hollywood Park isnt even in the same stratosphere as the old Yankee stadium in terms significance. The old Yankee stadium was still packing them in when they closed it.

Nothing personal, but you must be a younger Fan, and perhaps a Yankees fan.

I'm neither.

Perhaps with Yankee blinkers on the place always was packed, but real world was that when the Yankees sucked in the 1960's and 1970's years, almost no one came to the park. See "bandwagon" and "fairweather." Even in New York.

In those seasons the Yankees drew an average of about 14,000 and change fans per game....over about a 15 season span.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/yankatte.shtml

I wouldn't pin historical significance much on attendance in all cases.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by westcoastinvader

Nothing personal, but you must be a younger Fan, and perhaps a Yankees fan.

I'm neither.

Perhaps with Yankee blinkers on the place always was packed, but real world was that when the Yankees sucked in the 1960's and 1970's years, almost no one came to the park. See "bandwagon" and "fairweather." Even in New York.

In those seasons the Yankees drew an average of about 14,000 and change fans per game....over about a 15 season span.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/yankatte.shtml

I wouldn't pin historical significance much on attendance in all cases.

I didnt say the place was "always packed". I said the place was still packing them in when they closed it. And where did I say attendance had anything to do with historical significance?

I used Yankee stadium as an example of a park that had historical significance...it did. Its gone. Boston Garden as well...much more historical signficance to the public at large than hollywood park. There is a reason they are gone and there is a reason Hollywood park is going. Its called economics and if the economics made sense it would be restored, replaced or moved. At the end of the day, no one cares but racing fans really. And we are a tiny, dwindling minority.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

never cared for it. now that its poly its even worse. thats why i don't care if it closes. not that racing was not in trouble already but the poly tracks did not help. i know it hurts the handle because people don't want to bet them. like me and alot of my friends.

Well I mean that some people prefer the cushion over Polytrack at Del Mar or Pro Ride at Santa Anita. I mean you could argue it plays somewhat differently, almost an in between dirt and synthetic

[Rupert Pupkin]

My friend is on the TOC and they just had a meeting. I asked him what the chances are that Hollywood Park will be closed next year. He thought it was very unlikely. He said that he would estimate that there is a 90% chance that there will be racing at Hollywood Park next year. I hope he is right.

Hollywood Park has promised the horsemen that they will give them at least 6 months notice before they close so that horsemen will be able to start planning what they are going to do and where they are going to keep their horses. They have not given the horsemen the 6 month warning yet. That is a good sign. On the other hand, as of right now HP still has not applied for racing dates next year. That's not a good sign.

I guess that no definitive decision has been made yet, but my friend on the TOC is very optimistic that there will racing at HP next year. I hope it's not just wishful thinking on his part.

If and when HP applies for racing dates for next year, then we will know for sure that HP is staying open.