Big Truck - NY bred

[ELA]

Of course, there have of course been a few cases where, when a stallion does well, they are relocated out of NY. Catienus attracted a lot of attention when he stood in NY, and had a couple of runners out there in his first crop (with a maiden running 3rd in the Bemont Stakes). There was a lot of back and forth as to whether or not he would stay in NY for the next season, and I would some people here know what went on with that decision and what was behind it.

City Zip was another, and while he became an attractive commodity, what was also going on was that the farm where he stood was being sold, so I am not sure which came first -- the chicken or the egg, so to speak.

NY stallions can be like any others, except the top tier, high demand stallions. There can be deals, foal shares, discounted breedings, etc. However, I don't think this is a function of it being NY, but more it being a function of the industry in general. Of course you are not going to see any deals floating around on AP Indy, LOL.

The "breed-back" rules are intended to allow the system to have integrity, and to add value. The same could be said for the step level of NY award money.

Eric

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by PSH

Also, am i correct that the majority of those who breed to a stallion in NY generally do not pay full stated stud fees but work out a deal????

PSH

That can be true of stallions anywhere. It depends on a number of things including breeding multiple mares, return customers, demand for the stallion etc.

[Linny]

Deal making occurs at all levels.
Remember that the $20k stallion is royalty in NY. In KY he's a "moderate" price point. I'm sure that there are a few breeders in NY who would support a higher end stallion but "a few" isn't really enough to make it worth it. With the volume of mares available in KY and only a handful of NY breeders vowing to commit to a stallion who is not especially expensive in KY, it's not a great deal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Linny

Deal making occurs at all levels.
Remember that the $20k stallion is royalty in NY. In KY he's a "moderate" price point. I'm sure that there are a few breeders in NY who would support a higher end stallion but "a few" isn't really enough to make it worth it. With the volume of mares available in KY and only a handful of NY breeders vowing to commit to a stallion who is not especially expensive in KY, it's not a great deal.

the $20k stallion in NY doesnt currently exist. But the points that were made above are true and the fact is that non 1st year stallion at that level is usually a pretty negotiable price

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Which stallions do you have in mind?

Mutakddim, Petionville, Northern Afleet, Honour and Glory, Sir Cherokee

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

All of them would fare well here, I suspect.

Apart from his effectiveness as a stallion, I was a HUGE fan of Honour and Glory.

I do not have numbers available, but aren't the first four stallions capable of siring dirt and turf progeny? (I'm unfamiliar with Sir Cherokee as a stallion.)

Mutakddim is a really good racehorse sire as is Petionville but neither are real commercial. They wuld be great in NY. I am not a big fan of Northern Afleet and I dont think he is a good fit as a KY stallion, more of regional type. Honour and Glory is a decent sire who ould also be better making NYBreds. I like Sir Cherokee as a sire but I dont know if he will get a fair shake in KY. I always considered Cape Town as an ideal NY type sire since he is pretty versitile but he has fertility issues

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I suspect that you have heard of longtime drive-time WFAN radio personality Mike Francesa. He is a big race fan and owns a few horses in the name of Summer Wind Stable, I believe.

In the spring of 2003, a friend of mine introduced me to him in the owners' boxes at Belmont. He said something about Mutakddim that I found perplexing, and I remember it clearly.

Francesa said that a Fasig-Tipton representative told him that at the time (2003), there was a lack of people who wanted to breed to him because of his the muslim reference to his name. I had a very hard time believing that people wouldn't want to breed to a horse for this reason. It sounded bizarre.

Did you ever hear anything along those lines about Mutakddim about five years ago?

it does sound bizarre. and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it were true.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by sumitas

. I do believe NY has never had a deeper sire corps than now. ?

I have to presume you talking 20th Century, or post-WWII, or something like that. One of the greatest pre-Civil War horses, in the days of 4 mile heat races, was the New York-bred American Eclipse, who also stood in NY, with his son Medoc, both of whom became leading US sires.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Mutakddim is a really good racehorse sire as is Petionville but neither are real commercial. They wuld be great in NY. I am not a big fan of Northern Afleet and I dont think he is a good fit as a KY stallion, more of regional type. Honour and Glory is a decent sire who ould also be better making NYBreds. I like Sir Cherokee as a sire but I dont know if he will get a fair shake in KY. I always considered Cape Town as an ideal NY type sire since he is pretty versitile but he has fertility issues

Mutakddim could be a very good sire if he had better sponsorship..Moving him to NY with more crappy mares want help.

Getting a Straightman to NY would be great but I don't see him leaving Fla anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

I have to presume you talking 20th Century, or post-WWII, or something like that. One of the greatest pre-Civil War horses, in the days of 4 mile heat races, was the New York-bred American Eclipse, who also stood in NY, with his son Medoc, both of whom became leading US sires.

Yeah I watched a reenactment of some of his races on The History Channel 5: The Ocho a few weeks ago. Outstanding horse.

[Linny]

The first Belmont was won by a NY bred filly, Ruthless but she hardly has an impact on todays breed.

In the above post about $20k stallions in NY, I should have said "a $20k stallion would be royalty in NY. I agree about Mutakkdim. He's a very underrated horse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Francesa said that a Fasig-Tipton representative told him that at the time (2003), there was a lack of people who wanted to breed to him because of his the muslim reference to his name. I had a very hard time believing that people wouldn't want to breed to a horse for this reason. It sounded bizarre.

Did you ever hear anything along those lines about Mutakddim about five years ago?

There was a Group 1 winning horse in Europe in the 90's named Hamas. He was sired by Danzig and out of the legendary broodmare Fall Aspen.

While a giant bust at stud, interestingly enough, the most accomplished son of Hamas so far is Istanbul horse of the year Akindayim. He's won over 20 races and made what amounts to $950,000. Akindayim races are on YouTube - including his win in the Group 1 Sultan Mehmet The Conqueror Cup.

The only real good horse I ever remember Mutakddim siring was Lady Tak, and she was only a $7,500 yearling.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Mutakddim could be a very good sire if he had better sponsorship..Moving him to NY with more crappy mares want help.

Getting a Straightman to NY would be great but I don't see him leaving Fla anytime soon.

The mares he gets now are NY level mares and he would probably wind up with better mares there

[AeWingnut]

Mutakddim is a good All-Weather sire.

He would be better off in a state with all-weather tracks.

[sumitas]

Was Lady Tak the one that upset Dream Supreme at the spa?

The sire thing, Mutakddim has good, solid numbers across the board. I'm still excited about Golden Missile in NY.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Did Fall Aspen produce Woodman, or did she produce Timber Country (or both)?

She produced Timber Country - no for Woodman. Really, she has to be considered one of the greatest broodmares ever. She's the dam of...

* Northern Apsen (Grade 1 winner in America, Gr 2 winner in Europe)

* Elle Seule (Group 2 winner in France. Dam of 2 Gr 1 winners)

* Mazzacano (Gr 3 winner, 2nd in Gr 1)

* Colorado Dancer (Gr 2 winner, dam of the great Dubai Millennium)

* Hamas (Gr 1 winner)

* Fort Wood (Gr 1 winner. Sire of Horse Chestnut)

* Timber Country (Won GR 1 BC Juvenile and Preakness)

* Prince of Thieves (3rd in the Kentucky Derby)

* Bianconi (Gr 2 winner)

Originally Posted by Cardus

Lady Tak was a nice horse. She ran in the Ballerina (?) at Saratoga -- I wast there and I thought that it was Travers Day -- and I remember a friend of mine telling me that she was going to be right on the pace, if not the pacesetter. I thought that he was crazy, since she had emerged from a series of route races, if memory serves.

Sure enough, she was right on top of the pace, and I think that she had the lead after a half in 45 and change.

She had an explosive turn move for a speed miler type horse - I know she won both the Test and Ballerina at Saratoga - but I think she actually ran a 23 flat 3rd quarter when she won the Test...it probably is the fastest 3rd quarter this decade by any horse in a 7f furlong Saratoga race.

I'm not sure if her Ballerina win was Travers day or not....could have been the day after the Travers maybe.

[sumitas]

Bianconi, Cozzene, and the La. sire Easyfromthgitgo (Dehere) all hail from the 4m family with their nexus being the great War Admiral broodmare Portage.

Insofar as sons of Seeking The Gold which Mutakddim , Petionville, Cape Town are, NY has none. Seeking the Gold is critcized for producing fragile offspring but Mutakddim (17 starts) seems to produce durable types.

Only 1 NY sire has Seeking The Gold as his broodmare sire, Nunzio (Holy Bull).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The Test is early in the meet - but that was the race she was coming out of routes into like you mentioned. Just checked her pp's.

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/ladytak.pdf

It shows her selling for 75K - but that was at a 2yo in training sale after she worked fast. She was a 7.5K yearling originally.

[sumitas]

$7.5k yearling. Amazing.

Let me add a tidbit to some of the interesting points in this thread. The most expensive sires in NY are standardbred.

http://www.harnessracing.com/sstatio...00&location=NY

Sunriver is this year's most expensive NY thoroughbred sire at $15,000. The only one over $10,000. (I prefer the 4 fig sires).

[ELA]

Actually, I think a couple of high-quality, more expensive stallions in NY could in fact improve the program. If you had some higher quality stallions in NY, the "breed-back" rule would be more effective, in reality -- more attractive.

A new stallion in NY who I think could be interesting is Patriot Act. He's a son of A.P. Indy and I think he comes from old Fred Hooper family/breeding. He's got strong pedigree and has some incredible support behind him. Will Farish and Lane's End are supporting the horse and syndicated him with some very strong breeders, real breeders. He could be an excellent outcross stallion (I think he is a half to the dam Student Council (who is by Kingmambo).

The dam's side is pretty strong -- I think a sister to Patriot Act, a graded stakes winner is the dam of graded stakes winner Gradepoint (also by A.P. Indy, I think), and is also the dam of Student Council (Kingmambo). I think that's how the pedigree plays out. Another offspring I think is the dam of Stephen Got Even, and maybe Don't Get Mad.

Anyway, I think this horse could get some good mares, and might be attractive to people looking to breed in NY, who might not have before.

Eric