Bernardini = 117 Beyer, Henny Hughes = 113 Beyer - Page 3

#41 10-09-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What about Thoroughgraph and Ragozin numbers? Can they be made or is it only the Beyers you are singling out in what appears to be a seriously misguided direction you are leading this discussion?

Funny, but some would say that horses like bernardini would perform worse if seriously challenged. I, for one, doubt they could perform a lot better. But, hey, what do I know.

Thors and Rags are better IMO...I'm a Rags man myself but understand that they are pricey for the genral public....beyers are the worst in my eyes, but then again it makesd sense...Rags are more exclusive and more expensive and those guys have a far more sophisticated formula IMO...

None of these could compute those efforts...the point is that if you keep up with the upper echelon of mainstream racing you shouldn't need somebody to quantify how good a race was....you obviously love Mr. Beyer so I'll just leave it at that....If I had a nickel for everytime he was wrong in his columns I'd be more rich a lot moreso than most any other handicapper's columns I have read on consistent basis...just saying...

ateamstupid · #42 10-09-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

Actually you bring up a good point. Any speed numbers would be tough to be accurate with with limited data.

And I agree with you about them "not being asked." I watched the jcgc and saw Castellano still as a statue, but it still looked like Bernardini was running his ass off.

Maybe the whip will discourage him.. It doesn't always make them run much faster.

You should go watch the Travers replay. Bernardini seemed to be dawdling in the stretch, so Javier cracked him once, his tail went out and he almost immediately opened up. So I'd say the whip didn't discourage him. It surprised him though.

#43 10-09-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Has Bernardini ever put up a Sheet# that compares to GZ or St. Liam? The best I have seen is a -2, I don't think he can really be considered great unless he cracks the -4 range on Thoro...If not, he's really no different than Smarty, Afleet Alex, Point Given, or Flower Alley for that matter...

He's never had to run a -4....it only takes a -2 to run away from his competition under wraps apparently....

randallscott35 · #44 10-09-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

He's never had to run a -4....it only takes a -2 to run away from his competition under wraps apparently....

Exactly. When he puts up a -5 like Mineshaft and Zapper we can talk....But to be fair those were as older so I'm willing to wait.

Cannon Shell · #45 10-09-2006, 08:17 PM

If sheet numbers were the end all of arguements then Bernardini is much better than Secretariat and Spectacular bid becuase his -2's are far superior to what those horses ran.

#46 10-09-2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Horses almost always run slower when pressed and challenged, they can't dole out their energy in an ideal manner. Its the biggest mistake ever to assume they would go "faster" if pushed.

I was talking about running faster if the jockey actualy made them finish up.....when they 5 clear straightening for home with no challengers in site, Castellano and Gomez both sat still and let them cruise home on their own without ASKING FOR THEIR BEST EFFORT...jut like in a workout in the mornings when two horses breeze together and the jockeys idle them down and don't ask for 100% run....Bernardini and DC, regardless if they were eyeballed or not - were not asked for full run in the stretch yet....If they were ridden with broken cross and hard ridden in the stretch I would say that they ran as fast as they could have run....but they haven't....they've been shut down at the 16th pole...

The Bid · #47 10-09-2006, 08:18 PM

Any number has a bit of objectivity in it, whether you are a tgraph, ragz, or beyer, guy. Any person with average vision can see that Bernardini could have won any of his races by whatever margin Javier deemed fit. Im sure Javy didnt think about his rag sheet number, or beyer when he choked him down the last 16th.

Cannon Shell · #48 10-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

Any number has a bit of objectivity in it, whether you are a tgraph, ragz, or beyer, guy. Any person with average vision can see that Bernardini could have won any of his races by whatever margin Javier deemed fit. Im sure Javy didnt think about his rag sheet number, or beyer when he choked him down the last 16th.

Horses do not decelerate like a car, inertia will carry them a 1/16th of a mile at a nearly identical speed regardless of what the jockey is doing.

The Bid · #49 10-09-2006, 08:22 PM

He lost at least 2 lengths being geared down. It was probably more than the final 16th as well

The Bid · #50 10-09-2006, 08:24 PM

Ah, a lenght probably, but it still is enough to sway a number

Cannon Shell · #51 10-09-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

He lost at least 2 lengths being geared down. It was probably more than the final 16th as well

Physics dude, physics. Horses going full speed do not just slow down the instant a rider wants them to.

Danzig · #52 10-09-2006, 08:24 PM

yeah, just ask john mckee...

The Bid · #53 10-09-2006, 08:27 PM

Hes not standing up on the wire, hes being throttled down at least the last
16th. I understand inertia.

#54 10-09-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Physics dude, physics. Horses going full speed do not just slow down the instant a rider wants them to.

You tell me when he was asked to lay down and give everything he had......he wasn't....the pedal was never to the medal IMO....

Cajungator26 · #55 10-09-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

You tell me when he was asked to lay down and give everything he had......he wasn't....the pedal was never to the medal IMO....

I agree with that... only I don't think the pedal was to the metal... haha.

Cannon Shell · #56 10-09-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

You tell me when he was asked to lay down and give everything he had......he wasn't....the pedal was never to the medal IMO....

He does not have to be asked, he knows what to do, thats why he is a good horse.

#57 10-09-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I agree with that... only I don't think the pedal was to the metal... haha.

Oops, sorry for the NASCAR term

#58 10-09-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He does not have to be asked, he knows what to do, thats why he is a good horse.

Comon man....his pilot dictates his pace...you should know that...Javier NEVER let him run in the JCGC...he even said that after the race in his postrace quotes....

Cannon Shell · #59 10-09-2006, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Comon man....his pilot dictates his pace...you should know that...Javier NEVER let him run in the JCGC...he even said that after the race in his postrace quotes....

Rule # 1 - Never listen to jockeys quotes unless they are negative.
Rule # 2 - Never assume that a horse who appears "well within himself" can go any faster than they are going

You should know these rules, your not a rookie.

#60 10-09-2006, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rule # 1 - Never listen to jockeys quotes unless they are negative.
Rule # 2 - Never assume that a horse who appears "well within himself" can go any faster than they are going

You should know these rules, your not a rookie.

Say what you will....the horse DID NOT give 100 effort.....he looked like he'd just grazed when he came back to the paddock....