Wisconsin Recall

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

Are you fuking kidding me? Please take off your rose colored glasses. BOTH and I repeat BOTH parties not only hope for but try to inflict failure on the other party.

absolutely! they are both far more intent on damaging the other, thus securing power for themselves, while the country lurches along virtually rudderless. rome burning while the two neros fiddle.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

what a waste of time, energy and money. all this hubbub, and the status quo remains the same.

No, it doesn't remain the same. The Democrats have won control of the Senate. John Lehman defeated Van Wanggaard in Van Wanggaard's recall election, giving Democrats control of the Wisconsin State Senate.

Walker can no longer push through legislation, unopposed, in the middle of the night. That's a great thing. The Senate has been swung from overwhelmingly Tea Party to Democratic control.

I think the only reason Walker won was this, from the exit polls:

27 percent of the voters judged recall elections appropriate for any reason
60 percent said they are appropriate only for official misconduct
10 percent said recalls are never appropriate

Walker is still under FBI investigation, and we'll just have to wait until he's indicted.

It's interesting that Romney has decided Wisconsin is "now in play" as a swing state? Because the exit polls showed the voters that voted yesterday would have him lose to Obama by 7 points this fall.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Companies are made up of large groups of people with a collective goal. Companies that aren't pro-America should be punished, guys like Immelt should not be rewarded with high level positions while decimating the American portion of their workforce.

Agreed?

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, it doesn't remain the same. The Democrats have won control of the Senate. John Lehman defeated Van Wanggaard in Van Wanggaard's recall election, giving Democrats control of the Wisconsin State Senate.

Walker can no longer push through legislation, unopposed, in the middle of the night. That's a great thing. The Senate has been swung from overwhelmingly Tea Party to Democratic control.

I think the only reason Walker won was this, from the exit polls:

27 percent of the voters judged recall elections appropriate for any reason
60 percent said they are appropriate only for official misconduct
10 percent said recalls are never appropriate

Walker is still under FBI investigation, and we'll just have to wait until he's indicted.

It's interesting that Romney has decided Wisconsin is "now in play" as a swing state? Because the exit polls showed the voters that voted yesterday would have him lose to Obama by 7 points this fall.

So you are saying that the democrats have lost touch with their voting base and should not have called for the recall?

BTW- interesting that you trust an exit poll on Obama/Romney when the same exit poll showed 50-50 which was obviously wrong.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Are you saying the primary goal of our representative government is to get re-elected no matter the cost to the nation?

Mitch McConnell said that his primary goal as leader of his party in the United States Senate was to ensure the President wasn't re-elected. Proof is in his actions - repeated obstruction of bills his party has formerly supported, just because they were introduced by Democrats.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

So you are saying that the democrats have lost touch with their voting base and should not have called for the recall?

No. That is not remotely close to what I said. BTW, the Democrats have retaken control of the state Senate through recall elections. I'm glad they held them. Recall elections are legal (that's how Scott Walker first got elected, in fact).

I am saying that most citizens don't believe in recall elections unless there is proven malfeasance. That means that, even though multiple felony charges and plea bargains have been filed against Scott Walker's aids and office workers from his immediate previous job, the public is holding to "innocent until proven guilty" as far as their governor is concerned.

The same thing happened to Blago in Illinois, who was re-elected twice. Maybe they can room together?

BTW- interesting that you trust an exit poll on Obama/Romney when the same exit poll showed 50-50 which was obviously wrong.

Exit polls are always questionable, and get adjusted as the real numbers come in, and are compared to the real numbers. So you "trust" exit polls to the extent that the polling data is verifiable.

Walker used a one-time new and entirely different methodology for figuring "job loss" than every other state in the country, including Wisconsin and Walker himself, has always used, just to make an ad for his re-election campaign.

Wisconsin is still last in the nation in job growth. Wisconsin has still followed the disastrous Koch Brothers - ALEC agenda, until it was stopped by the Democrats retaking the Senate, in spite of multiple corporations bailing out on ALEC.

The state budget is still a disaster, covered up by "funny math" spreading unsolved deficits out over future years.

Walker has simply papered over his disastrous term to hide his failure. The failure and poor governance of Wisconsin still exists. No train, no jobs, no balanced budget, a massive unsolved deficit. Plus Walker is still under FBI investigation, and has proven repeatedly to be a liar (it just came out he lied about inviting the FBI to start the investigation - he was really obstructing it)

This is no win for Wisconsin. But it's a partial good win, because Walker has been stopped from additional forcing through of the ALEC agenda his corporate owners have set for him. 64% of Walker's re-election money came from out-of-state billionaires. Walker is a wholly-owned corporate tool. That hasn't changed.

Oh, yeah: Did anybody notice that Friday, David Schuster broke a new story about Walker? That the FBI is investigating him outside of and in addition to the John Doe investigation?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Mitch McConnell said that his primary goal as leader of his party in the United States Senate was to ensure the President wasn't re-elected. Proof is in his actions - repeated obstruction of bills his party has formerly supported, just because they were introduced by Democrats.

And the President will say and do anything to get re-elected. Including demonizing one evil wall street capitalist while allowing others to host dinners for him.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

And the President will say and do anything to get re-elected. Including demonizing one evil wall street capitalist while allowing others to host dinners for him.

All the Wall Street money has now gone to Romney this election cycle, according to election filings.

But that has nothing to do with the Senate Republicans record-setting and documented minority-filibustering and outright obstruction over the past three years.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

All the Wall Street money has now gone to Romney this election cycle, according to election filings.

But that has nothing to do with the Senate Republicans record-setting and documented minority-filibustering and outright obstruction over the past three years.

Aside from the Bain folks donating to the President and of course the Lasry dinner at 40K per person.

It has to do with setting aside what is right in order to get elected. By BOTH parties as was stated earlier in the thread.

Unions are thugs for the most part.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Unions are thugs for the most part.

Nonsense. Unions haven't bashed people over the heads with violence for decades.

You falsely characterizing the current crop of Wisconsin school teachers, firefighters and police as physically violent is purposely disingenuous and nasty on your part.

Or you just don't know what "thugs" really means when you use the term "union thugs"?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. Unions haven't bashed people over the heads with violence for decades.

You falsely characterizing the current crop of Wisconsin school teachers, firefighters and police as physically violent is purposely disingenuous and nasty on your part.

Or you just don't know what "thugs" really means when you use the term "union thugs"?

Rogue/Cheat=Thug

Perhaps definitions have evolved a bit. Thuggish behavior was exhibited in a useless recall election of a Governor that was silly enough to hold up the occasional campaign promise.
Chicago politics=thuggery.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Rogue/Cheat=Thug

Perhaps definitions have evolved a bit. Thuggish behavior was exhibited in a useless recall election of a Governor that was silly enough to hold up the occasional campaign promise.
Chicago politics=thuggery.

No. The definition of a "thug" remains "a violent person, especially criminal."

I am not denying that unions used to use violence decades ago. It was ugly when unions first came about. The term "union thug" had a specific meaning, and it involved violence and terror and pain.

But you characterizing unions the same way today is simply wrong.

Words have meanings. You are calling union members - the schoolteachers, firefighters and policemen of Wisconsin, "union thugs".

That's nasty of you to call them that. And factually wrong.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

No. The definition of a "thug" remains "a violent person, especially criminal."

I am not denying that unions used to use violence decades ago. It was ugly when unions first came about. The term "union thug" had a specific meaning, and it involved violence and terror and pain.

But you characterizing unions the same way today is simply wrong.

Words have meanings. You are calling union members - the schoolteachers, firefighters and policemen of Wisconsin, "union thugs".

That's nasty of you to call them that. And factually wrong.

Unions are bullies then. That the majority of their forced membership would opt out of given a choice.

Obama will say or do anything to get elected. Which was the original point of my statement. The thug comment was more about seeing them take a public beating.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Unions are bullies then. That the majority of their forced membership would opt out of given a choice.

Obama will say or do anything to get elected. Which was the original point of my statement. The thug comment was more about seeing them take a public beating.

You parrot and foment hate terms. You repeat the hate terms deliberately used by ALEC this past year to turn members of the public against Wisconsin public school teachers, firemen and policemen. Falsely accusing them of violence, calling them "union thugs", justified suddenly violating contracts, justified taking their pensions and cutting their pay by 1/3, removing all negotiated salary protections they used to have, in favor of giving tax cuts to the wealthy and using the money that used to go to school teachers, policemen and firemen to plug the gap.

These are not "union thugs". These are school teachers, policemen and firemen who have served your community for decades, who have accumulated savings and pensions, who thought they could retire after a lifetime of hard work.

That's nasty. Think before you speak. There is a deliberate reason you were taught to use that term out of meaning. There is a deliberate reason ALEC and the RGA has told people to start referring to neighbors as "union thugs". It was so certain political people could benefit themselves with tax breaks, and you'd go along with using the lifetime of hard work of your neighbors, of your schoolteachers, policemen and firemen, to pay for it.

Because suddenly you were taught to view these people, not as your neighbors or protectors or the teachers of your children, but as nasty violent "union thugs" who deserved to lose what they'd spent a lifetime working for. Hate them! Unions are thugs! Take away all they have! They are the cause of all your financial problems!

Because rich people want tax breaks, and the money has to come from somewhere.

It's just a shell game. Teaching you to call your neighbors "union thugs", and blame your neighbors, enables it.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

These are not "union thugs". These are school teachers, policemen and firemen who have served your community for decades, who have accumulated savings and pensions, who thought they could retire after a lifetime of hard work.

They can just like everyone else. By contributing to their retirement like everyone else. Pensions are not reasonable for public companies and are definitely not reasonable for public employees. My father has been paid almost 2x what he made during his 25 years as a police officer since retiring. Pensions and UAW demands for the continuance of them are what killed the auto industry in Detroit. If you don't think something has to happen to the public version to continue the lifestyle you are a fool.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, it doesn't remain the same. The Democrats have won control of the Senate. John Lehman defeated Van Wanggaard in Van Wanggaard's recall election, giving Democrats control of the Wisconsin State Senate.

Walker can no longer push through legislation, unopposed, in the middle of the night. That's a great thing. The Senate has been swung from overwhelmingly Tea Party to Democratic control.

Too bad the legislature isn't scheduled to meet between now and the November elections.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

They can just like everyone else. By contributing to their retirement like everyone else. Pensions are not reasonable for public companies and are definitely not reasonable for public employees. My father has been paid almost 2x what he made during his 25 years as a police officer since retiring.

Should your father's income be suddenly cut in half now, after he's retired? Should the contract he worked under be altered after the fact? After he's retired? Because that's what you are supporting. Not changing the contract for the future retirees - but changing it for people that have already retired.

And is your father a violent, evil union thug? Because that's what you call him.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Too bad the legislature isn't scheduled to meet between now and the November elections.

Yes, a good thing! Walker had planned "special sessions", to try and push through a few more things, but now that's canceled due to the loss of GOP Senate control.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Should your father's income be suddenly cut in half now, after he's retired? Should the contract he worked under be altered after the fact? After he's retired? Because that's what you are supporting. Not changing the contract for the future retirees - but changing it for people that have already retired.

And is your father a violent, evil union thug? Because that's what you call him.

He and the other PBA members were known for their harsh negotiation tactics. If there is no money then there is no money. Most people understand that.
My parents taught me growing up that money didn't grow on trees. A good portion of the liberal population of this country never learned that lesson. Math is math and it cannot be changed.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

He and the other PBA members were known for their harsh negotiation tactics. If there is no money then there is no money. Most people understand that.
My parents taught me growing up that money didn't grow on trees. A good portion of the liberal population of this country never learned that lesson. Math is math and it cannot be changed.

But there is money. It's in your father's pension fund. It was contributed by him, and matched by the city, during his working life, it accumulated interest, and now it is to pay him what was promised him, for his lifetime of work.

I'll not allow someone to demonize your father, call him a freeloader and a union thug and a cheat living off the public teat, because some politician wants to steal his hard-earned pension to give tax cuts to his rich friends.