Occupy Wall Street

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

When a staggering percentage of the rich have profited off of the decade-long wars? 85%

Do you have specifics? Sounds interesting.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Sorry, but I'm missing the point in all of this. Rich people are rich and therefore are evil?

No.

Yes, you are missing the point completely. OWS is not anti-capitalist, not anti-wealth, not-anticorporation. Wealth, success, freedom, happiness, working hard at something you enjoy, building a life, is the American Dream. We are a country of immigrants, this country is based upon that dream of a better, successful life.

It is about the small percentage of wealthy and powerful who have literally purchased our government, and have been running it for their own personal profit for the past 50-70 years. The 1% who have dismantled regulation and controls, so they can personally profit at the expense of everyone else.

The protesters - who are indeed the majority - have every intention of taking their government back from the 1% that think it is their private plutocracy, and get corporate ownership out of government, and citizen ownership of this democracy back in. So the American Dream can be shared again by the 99%.

And that has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans or Independents. Although the Republican Party is clearly a wholly-owned corporate subsidiary of the 1%, and alot of Democrats are, too.

This 3-minute video by DC Douglas explains "why" OWS exists perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1MOMKZ8BI

This round table discussion from This Week with Christiane Amanpour this past Sunday demonstrates the complete misunderstanding of OWS by Peggy Noonan and George Will, which is succinctly answered by OWS protester Jesse LaGreca

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video...tests-14699460

Today the Republicans are so scared of losing their power and ownership, they are starting to give lip service as to the validity of the movement.

Unfortunately, the movement will not be able to be co-opted by a political party, as the Tea Party astroturf was by the Koch Brothers and Karl Rove. And that is precisely what the politicians are scared of.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

Folks are starting to get serious..

It got pretty serious overnight this morning in Boston, when the Boston Police Department came in, confiscated every protesters private possessions (tents, etc) from the park and threw them away , then went back through the line of Veterans for Peace, throwing their flags on the ground while they hauled them off and arrested them; then arrested an additional 100+ people: including bystanders, media people and medics.

So less than 24 hours ago, this morning in the dead of night, we had the largest mass citizen protester arrest since the Viet Nam war era, and the national evening news covered none of it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Stopped by occupy Denver this morning with a stack of job apps. Not a lot of takers. Even the guy whose sign said "We Want Jobs!!!" he must've meant Steve.

What were you looking to hire for?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Obfuscation. The federal income tax is 35 percent for the top bracket. 35 percent. How is that not a "fair share?" If 35 percent of any human's income isn't their fair share to fund the government, what is? 50 percent? 60 percent?

Percentages are meaningless unless you have limited rightoffs. They are not paying anything near 35% hence Warren Buffets statements.

[dino]

Shouldn't these protestors either be working or looking for a job? Just when was it that working hard and making something out of your life is a BAD thing? Maybe we should all bring up our children teaching them that they should be losers who expect other people to take care of them.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

Percentages are meaningless unless you have limited rightoffs. They are not paying anything near 35% hence Warren Buffets statements.

which is why the tax code needs to be overhauled. also, people need to face facts-not all wealthy folks create jobs, or worked hard for their money. we can't keep burying the middle class under all the burdens. 47% of america pays nothing in federal taxes. nothing. of course no one mentions whether they receive 'refunds'. that means just over half the country bears all of the burden. and the burden is getting too big for the 53% who are providing 100% of the money that our fed burns thru.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dino

Shouldn't these protestors either be working or looking for a job? Just when was it that working hard and making something out of your life is a BAD thing? Maybe we should all bring up our children teaching them that they should be losers who expect other people to take care of them.

there's nothing wrong with working hard. they aren't protesting that. instead, people see wall street making money hand over fist, banks being 'bailed out' while paying millions in bonuses. ceo salaries thru the roof, etc, etc. how have the rich ever garnered so much sympathy? where is the sympathy for people looking for work that can't find it? people who pay into their 401k, only to see their retirement disappear? how many people can't retire because they can't afford it, which means no churn in employment?

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by jms62

Percentages are meaningless unless you have limited rightoffs. They are not paying anything near 35% hence Warren Buffets statements.

Warren Buffett's statement is true because A., he makes all of his money on investments, and B., the capital gains rate is lower than the federal income tax rate paid by his "secretary." It has nothing to do with income tax percentages or "rightoffs" as you put it.

Are you saying that capital gains and dividends should be taxed at the same rate as income? Because if so, that is beyond a horrible idea.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Warren Buffett's statement is true because A., he makes all of his money on investments, and B., the capital gains rate is lower than the federal income tax rate paid by his "secretary." It has nothing to do with income tax percentages or "rightoffs" as you put it.

Are you saying that capital gains and dividends should be taxed at the same rate as income? Because if so, that is beyond a horrible idea.

Wow. Nice response you try and put words in my mouth without addressing the main point of my message which is 35% is meaningless and just a talking point. They don't pay anything near 35% and probably most receive a refund to boot. If you think that I said "Are you saying that capital gains and dividends should be taxed at the same rate as income?" then no wonder you don't see that these people protesting are protesting for you and I.

Their point is that our government is being bought by special interests and they are making rules that benefit those special interests at our expense. If you think that you are or ever will be part of this 1% then you are delusional. Additionally you and the Dino's of the world may not be directly affected NOW however this is like a cancer. As our economy spirals downwards you and your business will directly be affected. As jobs become scarce and DEFLATION takes hold everything you everyworked for will become worth less and less.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's nothing wrong with working hard. they aren't protesting that. instead, people see wall street making money hand over fist, banks being 'bailed out' while paying millions in bonuses. ceo salaries thru the roof, etc, etc. how have the rich ever garnered so much sympathy? where is the sympathy for people looking for work that can't find it? people who pay into their 401k, only to see their retirement disappear? how many people can't retire because they can't afford it, which means no churn in employment?

Dino has a job for now and everyone that doesn't is a worthless piece of sh*it. And he is quite good at parroting the talking points he hears on Fox News. It also fails to realize that this is the 21st century and you don't pound the pavement to find a job. You apply online, Post to Monster etc and are notified via email or cellphone call if they want to speak further. Sorry to blow is image of all protesters being lazy morons but you can protest and look for a job at the same time.

[slotdirt]

You really think that most people making over $374k (the 35 percent income tax bracket) are getting a refund? Especially when one includes local, state, and property taxes? Really?

And you have no idea whether or not I'll ever be in the top income tax bracket without looking at my W-2's. I can assure you these people are not protesting on my behalf. Whether or not I'm ever lucky enough to make that much money, I'll still never agree with the premise that rich people need to be taxed at a higher percentage simply because they're rich.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

You really think that most people making over $374k (the 35 percent income tax bracket) are getting a refund? Really?

If they have good accountants then yes or at least pay far less than 35% which is my point. Until you can prove otherwise then what I said has about as much merit as you insinuating that most making over 374 pay 35%. Agree?

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by jms62

If they have good accountants then yes or at least pay far less than 35% which is my point. Until you can prove otherwise then what I said has about as much merit as you insinuating that most making over 374 pay 35%. Agree?

"Far" less? Since you seem to be a federal income tax policy expert, I think the onus is clearly on you to prove the effective tax rate of the various income brackets. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that people in the 15 percent tax bracket are also paying less than 15 percent all things considered. Agreed?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

You really think that most people making over $374k (the 35 percent income tax bracket) are getting a refund? Especially when one includes local, state, and property taxes? Really?

And you have no idea whether or not I'll ever be in the top income tax bracket without looking at my W-2's. I can assure you these people are not protesting on my behalf. Whether or not I'm ever lucky enough to make that much money, I'll still never agree with the premise that rich people need to be taxed at a higher percentage simply because they're rich.

Top tax bracket is FAR FAR FAR away from my point that you will never be amongst the 1%. So getting back to the point tell me why these people are not protesting on your behalf?

Are you for banks being bailed out at our expense?

Are you for those people bringing us to the edge not being prosecuted and in fact receiving huge severances and bonuses for those who stayed?

Are you for special interests buying legislation that further helps them and hurts you?

Are you for jobs being shipped overseas and cheap foriegn labor being imported so companies can reach short term goals while in effect firing thier customers?

I think you probably have a lot more in common with those people than you think but are still clinging to this Republican v Democrat thing.. They both are fuking evil and whoever is in charge won't change a thing.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by jms62

Top tax bracket is FAR FAR FAR away from my point that you will never be amongst the 1%. So getting back to the point tell me why these people are not protesting on your behalf?

Are you for banks being bailed out at our expense?

Are you for those people bringing us to the edge not being prosecuted and in fact receiving huge severances and bonuses for those who stayed?

Are you for special interests buying legislation that further helps them and hurts you?

Are you for jobs being shipped overseas and cheap foriegn labor being imported so companies can reach short term goals while in effect firing thier customers?

I think you probably have a lot more in common with those people than you think but are still clinging to this Republican v Democrat thing.. They both are fuking evil and whoever is in charge won't change a thing.

Agree with just about everything you say....folks are so blinded by party politics that they don't see what's going on all around them. Both the right and the left are fed up with business as usual and if the folks in power don't wake up soon, things are gonna get nasty, history tells us that the masses will eventually rise up against what they see as blatant unfair treatment. Nothing is as simple as the sound-bite mentality this country has embraced, difficult problems require difficult solutions but they also require honesty, fairness (to all, not the wealthy few) and leadership...otherwise systems break down and chaos follows.

[dino]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dino has a job for now and everyone that doesn't is a worthless piece of sh*it. And he is quite good at parroting the talking points he hears on Fox News. It also fails to realize that this is the 21st century and you don't pound the pavement to find a job. You apply online, Post to Monster etc and are notified via email or cellphone call if they want to speak further. Sorry to blow is image of all protesters being lazy morons but you can protest and look for a job at the same time.

I must have missed the piece of **** comment that I made. Obviously there are plenty of hard working people out of work. That's a totally different subject that has nothing to do with this point. The protestors we are discussing are actually protesting people that are rich, not just the wall street insiders. They believe that the supposed rich should pay more taxes so that they don't have to pay any taxes like 48% of our country.
If I was unemployed I sure as hell wouldn't expect anyone in this country to pay more taxes to help me and my family. I would be cleaning toilets before asking for a handout, unlike too many people.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by jms62

Top tax bracket is FAR FAR FAR away from my point that you will never be amongst the 1%. So getting back to the point tell me why these people are not protesting on your behalf?

Are you for banks being bailed out at our expense?

Are you for those people bringing us to the edge not being prosecuted and in fact receiving huge severances and bonuses for those who stayed?

Are you for special interests buying legislation that further helps them and hurts you?

Are you for jobs being shipped overseas and cheap foriegn labor being imported so companies can reach short term goals while in effect firing thier customers?

I think you probably have a lot more in common with those people than you think but are still clinging to this Republican v Democrat thing.. They both are fuking evil and whoever is in charge won't change a thing.

How do you know what my political beliefs are? Please name me the special interests that have bought legislation that has helped them and hurt me? I want specifics, i.e., actual pieces of legislation. There's actually a pretty good argument that the one major bill that was passed as a result of the financial crisis (Dodd-Frank) has hurt consumers a lot more than helped them.

On the rest of your points (that these people are protesting on my behalf) there's not a thing that you mentioned that ranks on my radar screen of issues that merit protests. If you don't like how the free market works, there are plenty of other places in this world where it doesn't. I encourage you to visit them.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by dino

I must have missed the piece of **** comment that I made. Obviously there are plenty of hard working people out of work. That's a totally different subject that has nothing to do with this point. The protestors we are discussing are actually protesting people that are rich, not just the wall street insiders. They believe that the supposed rich should pay more taxes so that they don't have to pay any taxes like 48% of our country.
If I was unemployed I sure as hell wouldn't expect anyone in this country to pay more taxes to help me and my family. I would be cleaning toilets before asking for a handout, unlike too many people.

Dino... Really? You think the ENTIRE point of this is about the rich paying more taxes? That is certainly what the rebulicons want you to think, Pit the Working Class vs The unemployed and maybe you wont see that (Fill in the blank here Rebuplicons or Libtards) are changing the rules to enrich myself. This is way more than and important than tax rates and if it were simply tax rates I would be side by side with you.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

How do you know what my political beliefs are? Please name me the special interests that have bought legislation that has helped them and hurt me? I want specifics, i.e., actual pieces of legislation. There's actually a pretty good argument that the one major bill that was passed as a result of the financial crisis (Dodd-Frank) has hurt consumers a lot more than helped them.

On the rest of your points (that these people are protesting on my behalf) there's not a thing that you mentioned that ranks on my radar screen of issues that merit protests. If you don't like how the free market works, there are plenty of other places in this world where it doesn't. I encourage you to visit them.

Typical response

A. How do you know what my (Fill in the Blank) are?
B. Please name me the (Fill in the Blank) . I want specifics
C. If you don't like how the (Fill in the Blank) works, there are plenty of other places in this world where it doesn't. I encourage you to visit them

Seriously are you fuking 10?