Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Danzig

wonder why imaginary races would have any bearing...

Cuz that's all you got when healthy fillies are kept in the barn on CHAMPIONSHIP DAY…

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Cuz that's all you got when healthy fillies are kept in the barn on CHAMPIONSHIP DAY…

i was asking that in regards to year end voting, and jerry browns take on what occurred, not what anyone wished had occurred. they didn't face each other. imaginative scenarios of who would do what to whom had they meant should have no place in the discussion. based on the years' racing, rachel accomplished more than zenyatta.

[10 pnt move up]

I am sure its been mentioned or asked in the first three pages, but we all know that Brown advises people on horses sales, does he have a stake in this outcome?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I am sure its been mentioned or asked in the first three pages, but we all know that Brown advises people on horses sales, does he have a stake in this outcome?

Are you serious? You think he made up all that stuff so he can tout RA??

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you serious? You think he made up all that stuff so he can tout RA??

You dont think he has done that before?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

You dont think he has done that before?

The facts in this case are black and white

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Cuz that's all you got when healthy fillies are kept in the barn on the day they give away the most money…

FTFY.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The facts in this case are black and white

RA gets HOY and history remembers undefeated Zenyatta as the fans race horse.

RA has to do alot in the future to erase what Zenyatta did in her broad picture of races. Zenyatta is a closer that managed to retire undefeated and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the Breeders Cup Classic at 1 1/4 miles which at this point RA is suspect without getting weight.

Yes she has alot to overcome in her 4 year old campain.

Lets revisit it this time next year after RA has picked her spots and the BC is on dirt. Will she still be the same world beater that alot of people think she is, or will she be the great 3 yo Filly she was.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

RA gets HOY and history remembers undefeated Zenyatta as the fans race horse.

RA has to do alot in the future to erase what Zenyatta did in her broad picture of races. Zenyatta is a closer that managed to retire undefeated and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the Breeders Cup Classic at 1 1/4 miles which at this point RA is suspect without getting weight.

Yes she has alot to overcome in her 4 year old campain.

Lets revisit it this time next year after RA has picked her spots and the BC is on dirt. Will she still be the same world beater that alot of people think she is, or will she be the great 3 yo Filly she was.

i don't think so.


i find it amazing that much of the arguments for the one could be made for the other. but those squarely in one camp or the other don't see that.

watch:


zenyatta gets HOY and history remembers undefeated 3 yo rachel as the fans race horse.

zenyatta has to do a lot in the future to erase what rachel did in her broad picture of races. rachel is a tactical horse that managed to go undefeated this year and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the woodward, first ever for a filly.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

ok how many of r.a s races would zen have won..1 maybee 2

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

ok how many of r.a s races would zen have won..1 maybee 2

Looking at Zenyatta's record and if history was to repeat, you would have to say all of them.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

[Merlinsky]

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

"Yo, Zenyatta, I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish but Beyonce had one of the best rides by Mike Smith of all time."

Originally Posted by miraja2

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

Ah but it was a farce on polytrack. Surely as compared to other farces in American racing, those on dirt take precedent.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Zenyatta is a closer that managed to retire undefeated and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the Breeders Cup Classic at 1 1/4 miles which at this point RA is suspect without getting weight.

If you're gonna compare the two, you have to play on a 2-way street.

Didn't Zenyatta get weight in the BC Classic?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If you're gonna compare the two, you have to play on a 2-way street.

Didn't Zenyatta get weight in the BC Classic?

She is 1250lbs how much more can a horse weigh?lol

[mclem0822]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Earlier in the week I had the temerity of suggesting that there is no debate possible regarding HOY. Here's Thoro-Graph's Jerry Brown in a letter to the Thoroughbred Daily News again coldly pointing out the obbvious disparity between the seasons Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta had. Particularly key in on the list of stakes wins of their collective opponents.


To the editors:

I understand that everyone is basking in the afterglow of seeing a great mare complete an undefeated career by beating males. But with all due respect to Bill Oppenheim and others, the idea that Zenyatta should get Horse Of The Year over Rachel Alexandra is just silly when you actually compare their campaigns. When the voters sit down and do that in the cold light of day, I don't believe the vote should or will be close.

This year, before the Breeders' Cup, Zenyatta started four times. All four starts were at home in California, on synthetic tracks, against small fields of locally based fillies and mares that contained a grand total of one 2009 Grade I winner, Life Is Sweet. So if you are to vote for Zenyatta for HOTY, it is strictly on the basis of the Classic. Well, that race contained exactly two horses that had won Grade Is over synthetic this year (Einstein and Richard's Kid), some grass horses, and some dirt horses, which are demonstrably completely out of their element over Pro-Ride (see the last two years of results of main track Breeders' Cup races). Zenyatta beat them at her game, a game she is very good at. She's good on dirt, too, as she proved last year at Oaklawn--but most dirt horses don't handle Pro-Ride, which is basically grass, so she had a big advantage last Saturday.

Meanwhile, earlier this year, while Zenyatta was beating up Anabaas Creation, Lethal Heat, Briecat, Allicansayiswow and Dawn After Dawn, who between them have won two overnight stakes (and no graded ones) this year, this is what Rachel was doing:

• Racing eight times, at seven different tracks, winning them all.

• Beating colts three times in Grade I races, and beating older males AS NOT JUST A FILLY, BUT A THREE-YEAR-OLD.

• Beating the horses that in 2009 won the Kentucky Derby, Belmont, Travers, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Test, Stephen Foster, Whitney, New Orleans Handicap, Riva Ridge, Tom Fool, Acorn, Arkansas Derby, Chilukki and Oaklawn Handicap -- most of those horses males -- and doing it in every case over dirt, the surface where those horses won their stakes.

• And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing.

None of this is to be taken as a knock on Zenyatta; she's a great mare. But she just wasn't asked to do very much this year, while Rachel had arguably the greatest campaign any filly has ever had, at the end of which Rachel's connections had the good sense not to run her on (effectively) turf, against a specialist on that surface.

By the way, since it's what I do-- best race vs. best race, on Thoro-Graph figures, Rachel is about six lengths faster than Zenyatta at a mile and an eighth. That's at level weights, and aside from Rachel being two years younger.

Jerry Brown
President, Thoro-Graph Inc

Outstanding letter from JB, it's an open and shut case here. As much as we all respect Zenyatta's performance, Rachel's campaign was one that we may never see in the history of this sport again. HOY by plenty folks.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

Just got through watching that race. No way to avoid having to pick your jaw up off the floor after that one.

[10 pnt move up]

Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below

Breeders Cup Distaff
Kentucky Derby
Travers
Santa Anita Derby
Sham Stakes
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Irish Champion Stakes
Pacific Classic
Arlignton Million
Man O War
Manhatten
Kilroe
Santa Anita Handicap
Clark
Queen Elizibeth
Sussex Stakes
Super Derby
Amersterdam
Fountain of Youth
Florida Derby
Hawthorne Gold Cup
El Encino
La Canada
Santa Margarita