Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I just got off the phone with one of my trainers. He says that there is almost always an underlying reason as to why a horse is bleeding. He said if you dig deep enough, you will almost find that something is bothering the horse that is stressing him and causing him to bleed. This trainer doesn't care either way as to whether they ban lasix. He said that as long as they allow it, he will use it. He thinks there is no doubt that it is a performance enhancing drug. He says that if you follow sheet numbers, most horses move way up on lasix.

This trainer tells me that in his 20 years in the business, he can think of only one horse that he couldn't stop from bleeding. This particular horse was the only horse that he's ever had that needed lasix for his workouts. Some trainers give lasix to a lot of their horses for workouts.

This trainer went on to say that if you have a horse that runs 5 times in a row without bleeding, and then in his 6th race he bleeds (let's say he bleeds a 3 on a 1-5 scale), then you better go over that horse with a fine-tooth comb because there is almost certainly something going on with the horse.

If you go over any horse with a "fine-toothed comb" - deliberately searching for problems not readily visible - you'll always find something wrong

He's wrong, on a medical basis, to associate such insidious other problems as being causal of EIPH. There's zero scientific evidence - and that includes decades of veterinarians treating the problem - for his observations. There are standard "state of the art" medical protocols for diagnosing and treating EIPH, and there's zero scientific evidence that says to look for other systemic physiologic or medical problems as causal.

Above I listed some good articles on what research science and veterinary medicine consider causal to EIPH.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I just got off the phone with one of my trainers. He says that there is almost always an underlying reason as to why a horse is bleeding. He said if you dig deep enough, you will almost find that something is bothering the horse that is stressing him and causing him to bleed. This trainer doesn't care either way as to whether they ban lasix. He said that as long as they allow it, he will use it. He thinks there is no doubt that it is a performance enhancing drug. He says that if you follow sheet numbers, most horses move way up on lasix.

This trainer tells me that in his 20 years in the business, he can think of only one horse that he couldn't stop from bleeding. This particular horse was the only horse that he's ever had that needed lasix for his workouts. Some trainers give lasix to a lot of their horses for workouts.

This trainer went on to say that if you have a horse that runs 5 times in a row without bleeding, and then in his 6th race he bleeds (let's say he bleeds a 3 on a 1-5 scale), then you better go over that horse with a fine-tooth comb because there is almost certainly something going on with the horse.

Ok so in effect the your trainer has shot down the breeding theory as to why we should ban lasix.

I dont disagree with him at all about triggers that may very well be underlying causes. Certainly stress can cause many issues and because they cant talk we often are clued in after the fact as well as viral or bacterial infections.
And once a horse bleeds once they are more prone to do it again. So with round about reasoning he is giving a solid reason why we should not ban lasix.

While your trainer may be a good horseman he obviously isnt skilled in statistical analysis because there is no sample size great enough of non-lasix horses to come up with an accurate assessment of sheet numbers for those types versus regular lasix horses. The sample pool would also be tainted as the vast majority of horses that run without lasix are 1st time starters and young horses, the vast majority of which are due to improve with time regardless of all other factors including lasix. And since you dont know the severity of a bleeding incident that would cause a horse to be placed on lasix couldnt the fact that the horse didnt bleed w/ medication allow the number to go back where it should be considering the bleeding may have artificially depressed the number?

Not to mention if everyone has equal access to the same medication and no advantage is being gained than why would lasix not be considered something that is leveling the playing field? And wouldnt the elimination of the medicine lead to replacement by various other remedies which will not only be unknown to the public and other participants and work with vastly different effectiveness causing more potential form changes?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

One of the biggest reasons why the average starts per year stat has continued to decrease is the modern theory of starting 2 year olds later in the year and hardly racing at 2. It is pretty hard for older horses to counter a horse making 1 or 2 starts and having them count the same as a horse that perhaps ran all year. But why waste time on facts?

We know that horses started at 2 and raced young have stronger bones, longer careers, and less likelihood of musculoskeletal injury over their lifetimes.

But PETA won't tell you that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

We do have some good stallions here. I'm not saying that anyone thinks all of our stallions are bad.

With regards to the Europeans using lasix in the US, they use it because they thing it's performance enhancing and they think they would be at a disadvantage by not using it.

no, they use it because they can here. if everyone truly thought it was performance enhancing, than why do i see horses racing here without an 'L' next to their name???

[Riot]

The argument has gone away from the strongest argument in favor of using lasix, and why the veterinary world strongly supports it's continued use, and why it's used for training works in the countries that ban it on race day: it helps protect the race horse from lung damage. It is good for their health, with little downside.

Can we race without it? Sure. But horses won't be able to run as fast, as far, or as frequently. Not due to performance-enhancement, but due to increased level of side effects from chronic lung damage.

Before we used lasix, horsemen used to not allow horses to drink water for 1-2 days before racing, in order to dehydrate them. Far better one lasix injection is used to protect the lungs short-term during the work or race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As Dale Romans said today on ATR, 'Who cares what they do in Europe' -- or anywhere else?'. Should we adopt the Euro too? We have a different sport that generally races on a different surface. The stresses placed on horses here are different than those in the rest of the world. We don't have 6 month seasons where horses are off more than they race. We don't have private backstretches where track-run vets & dispensaries operate. Meanwhile, iinternational outfits train on Lasix readily and would use it on raceday happily.

Seriously still clinging to the 'lasix masks other drugs' nonsense? That crap is old enough to vote. File it with the other grand lie that 'bleeding is hereditary and we need to purge it from the gene pool'. It's amazing that someone who is 'in the business' is perpetuating the same misinformation being peddled by the uninformed on facebook and the like.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You don't think a horse is far more likely to bleed if something is hurting them?

No, not at all. In fact I think it's less likely, as they won't run as fast or hard, they'll produce a sub-maximal cardiopulmonary effort.

93% of race horses have evidence of red blood cells (bleeding into the airways) after maximal effort if you do broncho-aveolar lavage as a diagnostic method (squirt sterile water down there, suck it back out, and look at the cells under a microscope) This is where lasix is valuable to attenuate chronic, constant lung damage over a career.

Only less than half have visible bleeding in the airways via bronchoscope (merely looking down the airway) after a race.

And very few have such severe bleeding there is blood coming out their noses.

But believe me: if we stop using lasix, the first horse that pulls up a furlong from the wire, and is taken directly to the trainer in front of the grandstand snorting and losing copious amounts of blood out it's nose over the jockey, trainer, groom in front of the crowd - it won't be pretty what will happen in the press. But more importantly, that's not good for race horses. It's not good medicine. It's not good care. We want them to be elite athletes. Let's use current knowledge in veterinary medicine to help them achieve it. And that has nothing to do with "doping".

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no, they use it because they can here. if everyone truly thought it was performance enhancing, than why do i see horses racing here without an 'L' next to their name???

I don't know if every trainer thinks lasix is performance enhancing.

I personally think it is a big mistake to use lasix on a first-time starter. The reason is because there is a small percentage of horses that will actually run worse on lasix. I have no idea what that percentage is. It is probably somewhere between 1-5%. If possible, I would like to run a horse at least once or twice without lasix. That way you can at least see how they run without it as compared to how they run with it.

One of my trainers (a different trainer than the one I was on the phone with) had a horse that had run 3 times without lasix. He had run great every time. He had two wins and then ran 2nd in a stakes race. He then decided to put the horse on lasix for his next race. He figured that lasix helps most horses and it would probably help this horse (even though the horse had never bled). The horse ended up running poorly in his first race with lasix. The trainer never even thought of the possibility that lasix might have been the cause of the dull effort. He was dumbfounded as to why the horse ran so bad. The horse had been training great. He ran him again with lasix and he ran bad again. They went over the horse with a fine-tooth comb and couldn't find anything wrong with him. He came out of the race great and he was training great.

At this point, the trainer started thinking about the possibility that the lasix was the cause of the two bad races. The horse had run great three times in a row without lasix. Then the horse ran poorly two races in a row with lasix. The trainer couldn't come up with any explanation for the horse's two bad races. So he thought there was a small possibility that this horse was one of the few that runs worse with lasix. He took the horse off lasix for his next race and the horse won (it was a stakes race) by 8 lengths.

This is not something that is common. As I said, I don't think anyone knows what percentage of horses that run worse with lasix. It could be as low as 1%. But this trainer is lucky that he ran that horse without lasix those first few races. Otherwise he would have never known that the horse was much better without lasix. That horse ended up being a multiple graded stakes winner. I'll bet you that horse would have never won a stakes race on lasix. That is why I think it is a good idea to run a horse a couple of times without it.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, not at all. In fact I think it's less likely, as they won't run as fast or hard, they'll produce a sub-maximal cardiopulmonary effort.

93% of race horses have evidence of red blood cells (bleeding into the airways) after maximal effort if you do broncho-aveolar lavage as a diagnostic method (squirt sterile water down there, suck it back out, and look at the cells under a microscope) This is where lasix is valuable to attenuate chronic, constant lung damage over a career.

Only less than half have visible bleeding in the airways via bronchoscope (merely looking down the airway) after a race.

And very few have such severe bleeding there is blood coming out their noses.

But believe me: if we stop using lasix, the first horse that pulls up a furlong from the wire, and is taken directly to the trainer in front of the grandstand snorting and losing copious amounts of blood out it's nose over the jockey, trainer, groom in front of the crowd - it won't be pretty what will happen in the press. But more importantly, that's not good for race horses. It's not good medicine. It's not good care. We want them to be elite athletes. Let's use current knowledge in veterinary medicine to help them achieve it. And that has nothing to do with "doping".

Every vet and trainer I know say exactly the opposite. They will all tell you that if a horse who doesn't normally bleed, all of a sudden bleeds (a decent amount like a 3), there is almost certainly something going on. As Chuck said, it could be an infection. It could be an injury that has yet to be diagnosed. It could be a lot of things. It would be a huge mistake to just assume that the horse bled for no reason and that a bigger dose of lasix is the answer.

[Riot]

Rupert, to your trainers impressions, there has been contrary scientific measurements regarding lasix. Studies that show horses on lasix don't do as well (dehydration, electrolyte changes). Then one study in the 1990's, looking at actual race horse races run, that showed horses on lasix did better (ran slightly longer, faster) What couldn't be eliminated in the second study was maidens simply learning their job and improving their 2-3-4 starts (as they also were then put on the vet's list for lasix due to evidence of bleeding).

I consider lasix a performance-enabler. Not a performance-enhancer. It helps prevent lung damage. It enables a horse to do the best they can with what they have. Let's use modern sports medicine to help horses, not hurt them. It has nothing to do with doping.

With all the problems horse racing has, that the poobahs of racing are even addressing lasix like this is beyond my comprehension.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Every vet and trainer I know say exactly the opposite. They will all tell you that if a horse who doesn't normally bleed, all of a sudden bleeds (a decent amount like a 3), there is almost certainly something going on. As Chuck said, it could be an infection. It could be an injury that has yet to be diagnosed. It could be a lot of things. It would be a huge mistake to just assume that the horse bled for no reason and that a bigger dose of lasix is the answer.

Whoa - that's not how it's looked at

What I am saying is that no, "other things" are not considered causal for Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage.

There can be bleeding in the lungs due to other things that are NOT EIPH. Not all bleeding is EIPH. But 93% of race horses have evidence of microscopic bleeding due to EIPH in their lungs after races.

Including some lung infections (which can be secondary to chronic subtle bleeding in origin, as blood is the perfect bacterial growth medium)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know if every trainer thinks lasix is performance enhancing.

I personally think it is a big mistake to use lasix on a first-time starter. The reason is because there is a small percentage of horses that will actually run worse on lasix. I have no idea what that percentage is. It is probably somewhere between 1-5%. If possible, I would like to run a horse at least once or twice without lasix. That way you can at least see how they run without it as compared to how they run with it.

One of my trainers (a different trainer than the one I was on the phone with) had a horse that had run 3 times without lasix. He had run great every time. He had two wins and then ran 2nd in a stakes race. He then decided to put the horse on lasix for his next race. He figured that lasix helps most horses and it would probably help this horse (even though the horse had never bled). The horse ended up running poorly in his first race with lasix. The trainer never even thought of the possibility that lasix might have been the cause of the dull effort. He was dumbfounded as to why the horse ran so bad. The horse had been training great. He ran him again with lasix and he ran bad again. They went over the horse with a fine-tooth comb and couldn't find anything wrong with him. He came out of the race great and he was training great.

At this point, the trainer started thinking about the possibility that the lasix was the cause of the two bad races. The horse had run great three times in a row without lasix. Then the horse ran poorly two races in a row with lasix. The trainer couldn't come up with any explanation for the horse's two bad races. So he thought there was a small possibility that this horse was one of the few that runs worse with lasix. He took the horse off lasix for his next race and the horse won (it was a stakes race) by 8 lengths.

This is not something that is common. As I said, I don't think anyone knows what percentage of horses that run worse with lasix. It could be as low as 1%. But this trainer is lucky that he ran that horse without lasix those first few races. Otherwise he would have never known that the horse was much better without lasix. That horse ended up being a multiple graded stakes winner. I'll bet you that horse would have never won a stakes race on lasix. That is why I think it is a good idea to run a horse a couple of times without it.

there's more to it than just saying ' a first time starter'. they've been in training, maybe there's already been a bleeding episode? or maybe they just don't want to have to have a problem ever show up? if you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?
lasix has become the popular target for some reason, and really isn't the issue where drugs are concerned. the issues are with cheaters, some who are caught countless times, suspended countless times, and are still training. that's the issue, not a legal drug that has legitimate reasons for being used. it is absolutely a red herring in the whole discussion of what needs to be done to fix racing. cheating trainers and the owners who hire them are the issue. rather than all this bs posturing over lasix, where are the hearings and rules for many-times over cheaters? where are the moves for expanded testing, more security?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's more to it than just saying ' a first time starter'. they've been in training, maybe there's already been a bleeding episode? or maybe they just don't want to have to have a problem ever show up? if you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?
lasix has become the popular target for some reason, and really isn't the issue where drugs are concerned. the issues are with cheaters, some who are caught countless times, suspended countless times, and are still training. that's the issue, not a legal drug that has legitimate reasons for being used. it is absolutely a red herring in the whole discussion of what needs to be done to fix racing. cheating trainers and the owners who hire them are the issue. rather than all this bs posturing over lasix, where are the hearings and rules for many-times over cheaters? where are the moves for expanded testing, more security?

If you have a first-time starter that has already bled during training, that is a different story. You asked, "If you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?" I answered that in my last post. The reason I wouldn't want to use lasix for the first couple of races (assuming the horse has never bled in a workout), is because I would want to see how the horse runs without it. As I said, there is the rare horse that runs far worse with lasix. How would I know if my horse is one of those rare horses if I never ran him without lasix?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Whoa - that's not how it's looked at

What I am saying is that no, "other things" are not considered causal for Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage.

There can be bleeding in the lungs due to other things that are NOT EIPH. Not all bleeding is EIPH. But 93% of race horses have evidence of microscopic bleeding due to EIPH in their lungs after races.

Including some lung infections (which can be secondary to chronic subtle bleeding in origin, as blood is the perfect bacterial growth medium)

I wasn't talking about microscopic bleeding. It may very well be true that 93% of racehorses have evidence of microscopic bleeding. Microscopic bleeding is not a big deal. We don't need lasix for microscopic bleeding. Microscopic bleeding isn't going to affect a horse's performance in the least bit. Could it turn into a problem eventually? Yes, of course it conceivably could turn into a problem if it gets worse. But there is also a good chance that the microscopic bleeding won't get any worse and it will never turn into a real problem and it will never affect the horse's performance.

I know you will probably argue that we should use lasix prophylactically to make sure that the microscopic bleeding doesn't get worse. That is a fair argument. Some people will agree with that argument and others won't.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wasn't talking about microscopic bleeding. It may very well be true that 93% of racehorses have evidence of microscopic bleeding. Microscopic bleeding is not a big deal. We don't need lasix for microscopic bleeding. Microscopic bleeding isn't going to affect a horse's performance in the least bit.

Whoa, wrong, no, yes, it does. Microscopic bleeding is indeed the big deal. It causes small airway and alveoli scarring, impedes their breathing, sets them up for lung infections, pneumonia, fear of running. This is precisely why we use lasix in most horses! Not just to keep from looking at massive, uncontrolled bleeding which is only visible in the larger airways.

There are about 18 branching divisions looking down into the lungs, and the bronchoscope only goes down a few. If there is so much bleeding down in the lungs that it's bubbling up to be visible, that's not good!

Yes, it's true the horses are not approved for lasix use on the track until they have a visible episode of bleeding (bleeding so significant it's literally coming up out of their lungs into their bronchi), but we know that 93% have bleeding that isn't severe enough to see grossly on a scope. Yes, we want to protect their lungs, too! If your distal airways at the tiny microscopic aveolar sacs are filled with blood cells, you can't get oxygen exchange and you start to suffocate. A horse can and will pull up with this, and the horse can get scoped, and you might not see bleeding grossly in the larger airways. But if you do bronchoalveolar lavage (not done stallside at the track commonly to diagnose EIPH) yes, you find the cause.

This is why the AVMA and AAEP support lasix use in race horses.

Remember that 30 years ago, we didn't even have common stallside bronchoscopy right after races to diagnose bleeding. We only diagnosed it if blood came out the nostrils. Now, we know better, as more horses that don't bleed visibly out their nostrils still have blood in the larger airways. And we know that horses that still don't have blood in the larger airways still show evidence of EIPH by blood down in the smaller airways and alveoli (air sacs that exchange oxygen with the tiny blood capillaries). 93% of them do.

The end point is: we use lasix in the United States and South America, and it's a good thing for race horse lungs. We could eliminate our lasix use on race day, but it would still be used in the morning to prevent injury to horse lungs when they work at speed (just like other countries do now). Why? Because it protects horse lungs. Even if a race isn't on the line.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

If you have a first-time starter that has already bled during training, that is a different story. You asked, "If you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?" I answered that in my last post. The reason I wouldn't want to use lasix for the first couple of races (assuming the horse has never bled in a workout), is because I would want to see how the horse runs without it. As I said, there is the rare horse that runs far worse with lasix. How would I know if my horse is one of those rare horses if I never ran him without lasix?

thing is, if you wish not to run them on it, you have that choice. however, i don't think it's something that should be banned. i don't buy that it's a performance enhancer or a mask. if it was a masking agent, there sure are a lot of horses that stil pop in post-race testing...and if it is an enhancer, i'd think every horse would use it. that they aren't all on it belies that argument, doesn't it?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

thing is, if you wish not to run them on it, you have that choice. however, i don't think it's something that should be banned. i don't buy that it's a performance enhancer or a mask. if it was a masking agent, there sure are a lot of horses that stil pop in post-race testing...and if it is an enhancer, i'd think every horse would use it. that they aren't all on it belies that argument, doesn't it?

Do all professional athletes juice?

If not, how come? Roids definitely enhance performance.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While your trainer may be a good horseman he obviously isnt skilled in statistical analysis because there is no sample size great enough of non-lasix horses to come up with an accurate assessment of sheet numbers for those types versus regular lasix horses.

This is true now, but it hasn't always been the case. There were plenty of numbers to go around back in the 80s and 90s. Of course back then, horses actually bled in a race before getting lasix, so they usually ran poorly, but they improved a lot given first lasix.

However, I've seen the "Champions" book advertised here. Check out the performance of some really good horses and the Beyers they earn before and after lasix. Many of these did not come after poor races. There is an obvious improvement time and time again of at least a few lengths.

In the last 5 years or so, 1st timers with Lasix return 77 cents on the dollar. Those without return 47. The sample size is huge. Euro shippers with Lasix return 66 cents on the dollar, those without 38 cents. Obviously the sample size isn't as large, but it includes over 8000/2000 in those categories.

I personally don't care about banning Lasix. There are WAY bigger issues. But, anyone racing without it is racing at a disadvantage.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Microscopic bleeding is indeed the big deal. It causes small airway and alveoli scarring, impedes their breathing, sets them up for lung infections, pneumonia, fear of running. This is precisely why we use lasix in most horses! Not just to keep from looking at massive, uncontrolled bleeding which is only visible in the larger airways.

Are you suggesting that furosemide stops microscopic bleeding?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Are you suggesting that furosemide stops microscopic bleeding?

Yes. Research shows a decrease in red blood cells and hemosiderophages via transtracheal washes post lasix vs. without lasix.

Diagnosing EIPH gives vastly different incident percentages depending upon the method: visual assessment by laypeople vs visual assessment by vet vs. bronchoscopy vs. transtracheal wash (TTW) or bronchoalveolar levage (BAL).

The gold standard is something we don't do on the track, BAL or TTW.

We do use bronchoscopy, but it misses evidence of lower airway bleeding, only detecting visible blood that has been moved up into the upper airways.