Sea the Stars - How good? - Page 2

TropicalStorm · #21 09-26-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Now let me be a bit contrarian.

Dubai Millennium never won a G1 classic or wfa at 12f, the European classic distance. At 3, he showed he was a brilliant miler after he finished a well-beaten 9th in a sub-standard Derby. At 4, he won the World Cup 10f and the Prince of Wales's (10f) but never got the chance to show that, like Brigadier Gerard, that he could stretch his miler speed to 12f with his class. He was more of a 'might have been one of the greatest' than an actual member of the club.

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

brockguy · #22 09-26-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

freddymo · #23 09-26-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

Comparing two super horses is crazy..

TropicalStorm · #24 09-26-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

I did not say you were stupid I just think when he had his chance at 12f he looked like a very mediocre horse. Zarkava handled the 12f with ease and actually powered away at the end.

Dubai Millenium is mentioned much more than Zarkava too. It probably is because in America many do not even know about Zarkava but they know Dubai Millenium because of his Dubai race.

I do not go crazy over timeform ratings either. They rated Curlin above Zarkava which really is quite funny. She probably would have beaten him by 10+ lengths in a race like the ARC and two milers were able to beat him at his best distance of 10f.

King Glorious · #25 09-26-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

I don't think it's saying you are stupid. I think it's a matter of preference. Some people require seeing things proven at the so called classic distances. Zarkava and Sea the Stars did that. DM didn't. I'm not one of those people and apparently neither are you. I think brilliance can be seen no matter the distance they run. I remember once asking Chris McCarron (who had ridden King Glorious and Sunday Silence and against Easy Goer) which of the three he thought was best. He said that up to 8f, they'd never catch KG, at 9f they'd probably just get him and they'd handle him at 10f. To me, that doesn't say they were better than him. Just that they were better at the longer distances.

For me, neither Zarkava, Sea the Stars, or DM were as good as Lammtarra, who I still believe is one of the three best horses I've ever seen and I never understand why he doesn't get more respect. What he did was unprecedented. And in Pentire, Freedom Cry, and Swain, he was beating top class horses just like Sea the Stars is.

Sightseek · #26 09-26-2009, 10:09 AM

I could watch Dubai Millennium's DWC every day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmiYdsqH2fE

King Glorious · #27 09-26-2009, 10:18 AM

Form further enhanced by Rip Van Winkle's win in the QE II.

brockguy · #28 09-26-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Form further enhanced by Rip Van Winkle's win in the QE II.

Theres your Classic winner if Sea The Stars doesnt show up..

King Glorious · #29 09-26-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

Theres your Classic winner if Sea The Stars doesnt show up..

Hard to disagree with that. He's a nice horse.

brockguy · #30 09-26-2009, 10:21 AM

by some people's logic then, Sprinters just cannot be great horses because they havent won over a distance. That's just ridiculous to me..

King Glorious · #31 09-26-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

I think the most impressive thing for me regarding Zarkava is how she drilled Goldikova at a mile. We knew Goldikova was good at that point but we've since seen just how good and Zarkava handled her. To have the stamina to beat the world's best 12f horses and the speed to beat the world's best miler is incredibly impressive.

King Glorious · #32 09-26-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

by some people's logic then, Sprinters just cannot be great horses because they havent won over a distance. That's just ridiculous to me..

Me too. I've always taken the view that it's harder to be the best at shorter distances than it is at longer distances because far more horses can run the shorter distances so the competition is deeper.

TropicalStorm · #33 09-26-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

Theres your Classic winner if Sea The Stars doesnt show up..

I would agree but if Summer Bird or Quality Road take a liking to Santa Anita they will be formidable opponents. Hold Me Back is another horse that looks pretty live. Based on their pedigrees Quality Road and Hold Me Back should really like Santa Anita and are very talented horses. Hold Me Back really is the sleeper in that race if he goes.

King Glorious · #34 09-26-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I would agree but if Summer Bird or Quality Road take a liking to Santa Anita they will be formidable opponents. Hold Me Back is another horse that looks pretty live. Based on their pedigrees Quality Road and Hold Me Back should really like Santa Anita and are very talented horses. Hold Me Back really is the sleeper in that race if he goes.

I'm going to assume this is a joke. Sincere apologies if you are serious but the mention of Hold Me Back is what makes me unsure.

TropicalStorm · #35 09-26-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm going to assume this is a joke. Sincere apologies if you are serious but the mention of Hold Me Back is what makes me unsure.

Obviously Quality Road has the talent and the perfect pedigree. He looks like another miler like Ravens Pass was who will love the synthetic based on both both sides of his pedigree. Nobody will be shocked if he wins the Classic.

Hold Me Back though is a very underrated horse. That is why I said he is a sleeper. I really think both of the Winstar horses are very live. Colonel John is dangerous with the right trip. I think Hold Me Back will romp this weekend and be set up nicely for the Classic.

TropicalStorm · #36 09-26-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm going to assume this is a joke. Sincere apologies if you are serious but the mention of Hold Me Back is what makes me unsure.

Based on today's race it looks like you were rigth about Hold Me Back. I will be sticking with the other Giant's Causeway Colonel John, but I can't see him beating any of the Europeans. Maybe a Quality Road or a Summer Bird but I doubt it. I could see the Europeans running 1-2 again.

King Glorious · #37 09-26-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

Obviously Quality Road has the talent and the perfect pedigree. He looks like another miler like Ravens Pass was who will love the synthetic based on both both sides of his pedigree. Nobody will be shocked if he wins the Classic.

Hold Me Back though is a very underrated horse. That is why I said he is a sleeper. I really think both of the Winstar horses are very live. Colonel John is dangerous with the right trip. I think Hold Me Back will romp this weekend and be set up nicely for the Classic.

You see why I thought your inclusion of Hold Me Back in the discussion was a joke?

RockHardTen1985 · #38 09-26-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

Based on today's race it looks like you were rigth about Hold Me Back. I will be sticking with the other Giant's Causeway Colonel John, but I can't see him beating any of the Europeans. Maybe a Quality Road or a Summer Bird but I doubt it. I could see the Europeans running 1-2 again.

Please DONT EVER INSULT GIANTS CAUSEWAY LIKE THIS. Colonel John is a Tiznow.... Tiznow is a good sire, but no GIANT.

Giants Causeway has a nice derby horse, Belmont Race 5 today.

RolloTomasi · #39 09-26-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Please DONT EVER INSULT GIANTS CAUSEWAY LIKE THIS. Colonel John is a Tiznow.... Tiznow is a good sire, but no GIANT.

Giants Causeway has a nice derby horse, Belmont Race 5 today.

Giant's Causeway would be in Japan or maybe Ireland right now if it weren't for synthetic surfaces.

Of course, by the same token, Tiznow would probably be in California.

RockHardTen1985 · #40 09-26-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Giant's Causeway would be in Japan or maybe Ireland right now if it weren't for synthetic surfaces.

Of course, by the same token, Tiznow would probably be in California.

Thats not true... He has had solid turf runners and a few decent dirt horses. Red Giant comes to mind... First Samurai.