Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i say constant harping because it seems that todd gets a lot more criticism than many other trainers.
it just seems lately, not so much here but in the press, that not a peep is said about asmussen and his history--it just seems to be more criticism per event towards some trainers than others. and it's not as tho SA has been clean lately-he's facing a hearing soon, yet is in the running for an award next month-which i feel is shameful.

I think that TAP takes more grief on discussion boards such as this because of the media's portrayal of him as racing's "golden boy," while the Asmussens and Dutrows of the game are never portrayed in that light. I think what you are reading here is that, for a variety of reasons (often different from person to person), several individuals don't think that TAP's "golden boy" image is deserved.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Seriously. I understand that you wouldnt want to put it out on the board though if it was something sensitive.

I just find it fascinating that one barn can produce so many top trainers and it would be interesting to know what brought that barn down from the top.

It was a tough time for Wayne personally ( he has had 5 wives), klein leaving the business hurt alot, his assistants that left took clients with them and the game itself started to adapt to changes that he himself brought about. When he hit the scene virtually none of the big trainers were a national presense. Everyone was regional and even the top trainers had way fewer horses under their care than now. He made it acceptable for assistants to train owners good horses because essentially that is who is doing the actual training in outfits with multiple divisions. The time that I worked there we simply didnt have many really good horses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I guess the obvious question on inquiry minds is why the student(s) have passed the teacher? Almost everyone that worked for him is better statistically than he is when they leave...I don't think even the most challenged handicapper would wager on a Lukas horse with supreme confidence here in the present.

Lukas lost a lot of good clients along with the assistants that left. He was also a lot more aggressive about running horses (and still is) than the younger guys who are more aware of their win percentage. I never heard Allen Jerkens or Wayne lukas say a word about win % when i worked for them. They never saw it to have any importance which it really doesnt especially to the degree that it is used as a measuring stick. win % is the white elephant in the room that no one ever seems to bring up when we talk about horses making fewer and fewer starts per year.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Lukas lost a lot of good clients along with the assistants that left. He was also a lot more aggressive about running horses (and still is) than the younger guys who are more aware of their win percentage. I never heard Allen Jerkens or Wayne lukas say a word about win % when i worked for them. They never saw it to have any importance which it really doesnt especially to the degree that it is used as a measuring stick. win % is the white elephant in the room that no one ever seems to bring up when we talk about horses making fewer and fewer starts per year.

jerry maguire?

[Linny]

Several people mentioned TAP losing clients. I know he's lost Melnyk and some of the Peachtree horses but are they making any difference? I mean do Melnyk and John Fort have any sensations that are, by their absence hurting Todd? Beside that, Todd has picked up others, including some in Cali for Zayat.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I think that TAP takes more grief on discussion boards such as this because of the media's portrayal of him as racing's "golden boy," while the Asmussens and Dutrows of the game are never portrayed in that light. I think what you are reading here is that, for a variety of reasons (often different from person to person), several individuals don't think that TAP's "golden boy" image is deserved.

and of course whenever one has success, they become a target. the higher you go, the bigger the bulls-eye. the irony is that people will root on another, til they get too good. then the fun comes from tearing that same person back down.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

Several people mentioned TAP losing clients. I know he's lost Melnyk and some of the Peachtree horses but are they making any difference? I mean do Melnyk and John Fort have any sensations that are, by their absence hurting Todd? Beside that, Todd has picked up others, including some in Cali for Zayat.

of course losses will hurt-they add up. look at baffert. he's added owners, but in no way did they replace who he lost.
and for those who wonder why lukas ended up where he is--he started out where pletcher is right now, and continued to go down. if pletcher can't stem the tide, he'll end the same way.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Linny

Several people mentioned TAP losing clients. I know he's lost Melnyk and some of the Peachtree horses but are they making any difference? I mean do Melnyk and John Fort have any sensations that are, by their absence hurting Todd? Beside that, Todd has picked up others, including some in Cali for Zayat.

He has also been hurt by Coolmores lack of spending in the american markets recently (the green Monkey aside). Maybe those guys dont have any stars but they gave him lots of quality horses that add up to wins and money on the big league circuit.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

of course losses will hurt-they add up. look at baffert. he's added owners, but in no way did they replace who he lost.
and for those who wonder why lukas ended up where he is--he started out where pletcher is right now, and continued to go down. if pletcher can't stem the tide, he'll end the same way.

Lukas and Pletcher are far differnt guys and trainers. Outside of working for him and being a "corporate" type trainer pletcher and DWL dont have that many similarities.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

jerry maguire?

Paul

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Danzig

of course losses will hurt-they add up. look at baffert. he's added owners, but in no way did they replace who he lost.
and for those who wonder why lukas ended up where he is--he started out where pletcher is right now, and continued to go down. if pletcher can't stem the tide, he'll end the same way.

My point is that its not like Melnyk and Peachtree (to use two examples) are winning races in bunches. Tehy didn't take any monsters away from TAP.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Please. Any question you've been asked you've avoided and have been trying to act holier than thou. Chuck brought up a few great points in the last post of his you responded to. Shockingly, you left out all of his points that disagree with your stance. Yet, you took his last sentence and ran with it, as if it somehow strengthens your stance. You're not fooling anyone.

Good! I was worried there for a minute that you are as unable to comprehend the written word as the above mishmosh of weird inaccuracies and wrong assumptions indicates.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

My point is that its not like Melnyk and Peachtree (to use two examples) are winning races in bunches.

melnyk may still be in legal hot water, might explain the lack of punch in his stable right now.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

However - when I compare Pletcher's positive for a whiff of mepivicaine (and the procaine), to Biancone's, "I didn't know the cobra venom was in my barn" and Rod Stewart's, "My wife emptied the fridge and I didn't know either" - then add in Biancone's past (international) history, and Pletcher's past history - well, Pletcher isn't the one I'm going to turn up my nose in disgust at.

So basically, what you're saying is that a guy who's had two seperate horses (that won or placed in races) with significant levels of local anesthetic in their systems during the immediate post-race period looks rosier than a guy who had an unused vial of illegal medication sitting in a refridgerator.

That's like saying you'd prefer to be driving along the freeway with a drunk driver, rather than a guy with a dimebag in his glove compartment.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

So basically, what you're saying is that a guy who's had two seperate horses (that won or placed in races) with significant levels of local anesthetic in their systems during the immediate post-race period looks rosier than a guy who had an unused vial of illegal medication sitting in a refridgerator.

That's like saying you'd prefer to be driving along the freeway with a drunk driver, rather than a guy with a dimebag in his glove compartment.

The levels were not "significant". They were low.

Pletcher had a positive for mepivicaine, a Class 2 therapeutic drug (a therapeutic med that has "potential to impact performance") at such a low level that it is now legal.

And he has a positive for procaine, a Class 3 therapeutic med with "little to no ability to impact performance".

Biancone was guilty of having prohibited drugs on the racetrack grounds in his barn. It wasn't just cobra venom, it was also levodopa and carbidopa (last two drugs used to treat nerve tremors in humans with Parkinson's).

All three drugs being Class A violations (the ultimate) for simply having them on racetrack grounds; Class A drugs have "the highest potential to impact racing performance with zero therapeutic benefit to horses".

There are currently no tests whatsoever to detect these three drugs in the horse. Cobra venom is a local anesthetic that's been around for some time. It's only use at the racetrack is to try and create anesthesia that cannot be detected.

Yes. I absolutely view Pletcher's violations as far less serious than Biancone's. As a veterinarian, I don't take a violation of the racing rules, or potential horse abuse, lightly.

To use your analogy, Pletcher is driving after having a Coors Light; while Biancones glove compartment is filled with heroin and angel dust, and he's speeding down the highway in the wrong lane with his eyes closed.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Riot

The levels were not "significant". They were low.

To use an analogy, that is like saying "I'm a little pregnant". Either you are or you aren't.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by CSC

To use an analogy, that is like saying "I'm a little pregnant". Either you are or you aren't.

gotta say that imho the Pletcher situation vs the Biancone situation is a little different than your analogy...
more like two students that get suspended from school for violation of no drugs on school grounds......one gets caught taking asprin for a headache....the other gets caught with an eightball of blow in his locker....


The question that remains unanswered is.....What (if anything) is/was in the locker of the kid with the headache???

[reese]

Originally Posted by CSC

To use an analogy, that is like saying "I'm a little pregnant". Either you are or you aren't.

That comment has to be one of the dumbest I've read.

WHY do you think 90% of LEGAL medications have clearly specified "withdrawal intervals" before a horse can race?
Nothing in race horse drug administration is remotely akin to being pregnant...

As stated, Pletcher's overage of procaine occured via an antibiotic injection and the horse cleared the allowable interval for the drug to dissipate, but in this horse, it did not.

As stated, Pletcher's horse was treated with an allowable and legal medication. There is NO part of Cobra venom that is allowable or legal for race horses...

As an aside, Baffert was acussed several years ago of using "cocaine" on a horse. His attorney, Papianio, beat the rap by proving that the amount of cocaine found in the horse was "akin to a drop of water in a swimming pool" and Baffert's horse was unintentuonally contaiminated via casual contact.

What I'd like to understand is why are CA trainers like Sadler and O'Neill repeatedly caught using steroids and/or milkshakes but get a "pass warning"and Pletcher is castigated for a LEGAL medication overage...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by reese

That comment has to be one of the dumbest I've read.

WHY do you think 90% of LEGAL medications have clearly specified "withdrawal intervals" before a horse can race?
Nothing in race horse drug administration is remotely akin to being pregnant...

As stated, Pletcher's overage of procaine occured via an antibiotic injection and the horse cleared the allowable interval for the drug to dissipate, but in this horse, it did not.

As stated, Pletcher's horse was treated with an allowable and legal medication. There is NO part of Cobra venom that is allowable or legal for race horses...

As an aside, Baffert was acussed several years ago of using "cocaine" on a horse. His attorney, Papianio, beat the rap by proving that the amount of cocaine found in the horse was "akin to a drop of water in a swimming pool" and Baffert's horse was unintentuonally contaiminated via casual contact.

What I'd like to understand is why are CA trainers like Sadler and O'Neill repeatedly caught using steroids and/or milkshakes but get a "pass warning"and Pletcher is castigated for a LEGAL medication overage...

I'll have to think about that dumbest thing comment abit more, but in short do you seriously think the N.Y stewards would hand down a 45 day suspension if it was an coincidental incident. They could have slapped him on the wrists for sloppiness but chose the latter.

BTW How would you know the original dose wasn't a significant amount? The point is the stewards deemed something was not right and they administered the punishment. I guess they just picked out a random number ...

[reese]

The violation is cut and dry...horse tested and was positive for procaine in CA.

All racing venues support violations handed down by other tracks. NY supported CA's finding of "an overage of procaine" Pletcher is appealing via Papianio in CA.

IF, IF you read the article re Plertcher's violation(which obviously you didn't
because YOU are commenting when you are UNINFORMED) you WOULD know ALL horses in the BC were tested.

Pletcher's horse got AN antibiotic for an infection. Procaine was USED with an intramuscalur antibiotic injection. Pletcher's horse tested positive for a minute amount...verified as being injected into the horse with the antibiotic 18 days prior.

The interval for clearance of procaine is 15 days. Pletcher's horse still had procaine in it's system AFTER the specified dissipation interval.
Hence, the CA violation supported by NY( and ALL) until an appeal.