Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The final voting was:

High Chapparal 30

With anticipation 11

Rock of Gibraltar 7

i said it didn't have to be more than one because a horse can be in the top three with only one vote-i didn't specifically know what rocks tally was, and it doesn't really matter.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I know Andy Beyer was one " nimrod " that voted for Rock of Gibralter. I believe he wrote a column about it.

i would imagine he got votes because, by running here he was eligible, and if memory serves he had one hell of a year.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i would imagine he got votes because, by running here he was eligible, and if memory serves he had one hell of a year.

And thats the point. If Rock of Gibraltar was a nominee and received 7 votes, you have to think that his performance overseas was taken into account because he never won a race over here.

And i dont think anything is wrong with that. That was the point KG was trying to make.

I think.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And thats the point. If Rock of Gibraltar was a nominee and received 7 votes, you have to think that his performance overseas was taken into account because he never won a race over here.

And i dont think anything is wrong with that. That was the point KG was trying to make.

I think.

i would imagine it's taken into account. i'd also imagine most writers with a vote don't have a clue who really is in the running, as unlike beyer, they don't keep up with the sport on a regular basis. so, name recognition would be key. how else would a euro-based horse get recognition then if their season was taken as a whole?
a race here makes them eligible, but i don't think one performance here is enough to elevate a horse to an award.
personally, i thought with anticipation deserved the award, but since it's not solely a us based award or even a north american award, you can't really argue with the results, as high chaparral fulfilled all the needs for a vote.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I know Andy Beyer was one " nimrod " that voted for Rock of Gibralter. I believe he wrote a column about it.

and i can understand why he would vote for him, but i don't agree with it. but it's his choice, and at least he pays attention all year long, unlike a lot of other voters.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I don't see how you can be so certain that the foreign records are weighted so heavily. I would even doubt that they are scrutinized with anything more than a passing glance.

Did Hatoof's Group 2 win France somehow tip the scales in her favor in '93? What about Miss Alleged's mighty Group 3 win back in '91?

Your tried and true fallback is Miesque who resoundingly destroyed the competition in the BC Mile, as did Arazi (and to a lesser extent, Johannesburg) in the Juvenile. It could be argued those dominating performances were enough to sway voters regardless of exploits overseas.

The one instance where you might have a point is BC dead-heater High Chapparal in '03, and even then, I'd guess that voters were more swayed by the fact that they gave him the Eclipse in '02, as opposed to anything specific he did in Britain in '03.

Hatoof won the title in 1994. In addition to her second in the BC Turf against males, she also won the Beverly D. Stakes here in the U.S.

Miss Alleged won the title in 1991. In addition to her win in the BC Turf against males, she also win the Hollywood Turf Cup against males.

I fail to see your point in those instances.

[blackthroatedwind]

It has already been stated a couple of times in this thread that there are no rules.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And thats the point. If Rock of Gibraltar was a nominee and received 7 votes, you have to think that his performance overseas was taken into account because he never won a race over here.

And i dont think anything is wrong with that. That was the point KG was trying to make.

I think.

and my point is they dont hold that consistent, if they did many european horses would have won eclipses over american horses.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It has already been stated a couple of times in this thread that there are no rules.

Well, there is the one rule that says you have to have started at least one time here in NA. After that, it's all subjective. For some of the voters, European form is taken into account. For others, it's not. But to say that foreign form doesn't count is just incorrect because if foreign form wasn't taken into consideration in a lot of instances, I bet there would be a few different winners.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Well, there is the one rule that says you have to have started at least one time here in NA. After that, it's all subjective. For some of the voters, European form is taken into account. For others, it's not. But to say that foreign form doesn't count is just incorrect because if foreign form wasn't taken into consideration in a lot of instances, I bet there would be a few different winners.

Thanks....I assumed that was implicit but I should have thrown that in.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

and my point is they dont hold that consistent, if they did many european horses would have won eclipses over american horses.

It has to be a combination of both. A Euro with a good record that wins a BC race combined with a lack of an American standout in the division gives that Euro a good chance at winning. An American standout will usually get it. Take the case of 1995, for example. Possibly Perfect won the award for top grass female because she had won the Beverly D, Ramona, and Gamely, all grade ones along with the grade three Wilshire and a second in the grade one Beverly Hills. That was a strong enough record to beat out Ridgewood Pearl even though Ridgewood Pearl had an outstanding record in Europe. It's the same as with HOY. If there is an outstanding older male on dirt or an outstanding 3yo male on dirt, they will always have the advantage over a female, especially if that female doesn't beat the boys. If those divisions are weak, however, then the door is opened up to a female. To a lesser extent but it's still there, grass horses are at that same disadvantage. If Bertrando wins the BC Classic in 1993, I think he wins the award over Kotashaan. If Turkoman or Precisionist win the Classic in 1986, I think they beat out Lady's Secret. If War Emblem wins the 2002 Classic, I doubt Azeri wins her award.

The only one that I'm really at a loss to explain is how in the world Favorite Trick won the award in 1997.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i would imagine he got votes because, by running here he was eligible, and if memory serves he had one hell of a year.

I totally disagree!!!! Not with the above quote but with your "Hail To The Redskins" sig. Go Steelers!

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Hatoof won the title in 1994. In addition to her second in the BC Turf against males, she also won the Beverly D. Stakes here in the U.S.

Miss Alleged won the title in 1991. In addition to her win in the BC Turf against males, she also win the Hollywood Turf Cup against males.

I fail to see your point in those instances.

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

[Linny]

There is no consistancy because every season is different. Typically when Euro's come to the US and get an Eclipse, it's in a division where chaos dominated. Juvies are suseptible as there are few G1's and except the BC, the best rarely meet up. Thus Johannesbug. Obviously the turf division is another. We don't separate turf milers as they do in Europe. This year you could make a case that Goldikova is the best grass horse to run in the US, even though she didn't have an American campaign. You could also argue that Conduit was the best because (typically) the router on grass gets more credit than the miler. Who of the US horses could you consider? IF there was a strong grass horse (if Kip had won the Woodbine Mile maybe or Dancing Forever not tanked on soft going) I'd prefer to see one of them get it, but I cannot see it happeneing unless Shug sends DF out there to dominate the Hollywood Turf Cup. Even then, it's a crap shoot.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

It might work for Mignight Lute even though one of the starts was a horrible loss.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Linny

There is no consistancy because every season is different. Typically when Euro's come to the US and get an Eclipse, it's in a division where chaos dominated. Juvies are suseptible as there are few G1's and except the BC, the best rarely meet up. Thus Johannesbug and Wilko.

Wilko didn't win the Eclipse. Declan's Moon did. Ultimately, Giacomo or Sun King would have been better champs if you take into account future performance.

By the way, up until his disastrous BC (and subsequent pack-mule punishment courtesy of Bob Baffert), Officer was far and away the dominant juvenile in the US, having shipped out to win the Champagne comfortably after terrorizing the competition at Del Mar. Johannesburg's cause was probably aided by those late season losses in the Cal Cup and Hollywood Futurity. Worthy of mention was Came Home, who was a very early season stakes winner in CA before lighting up the Hopeful at Saratoga.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

I think one is enough. You don't need two. I would have voted Ghostzapper in 2005 off of one start.

[Revidere]

I love this thread.

I'm still upset that John Henry beat out Slew O'Gold for HOY in 1984.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I hope your paranoia doesn't go so far as to actually believe this. If nothing else, your giving the voters way too much credit.

How come nobody on the East Coast has a East Coast/West Coast bias paranoia?

Because the East Coast has had the power for decades and could make a champion of Roman Brother while ignoring the accomplishments of Native Diver. And could cold-shoulder Exceller in a year when he won six G1 races, including the championship race in New York, by giving him no award at all.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Because the East Coast has had the power for decades and could make a champion of Roman Brother while ignoring the accomplishments of Native Diver. And could cold-shoulder Exceller in a year when he won six G1 races, including the championship race in New York, by giving him no award at all.

Feel free to tell us exactly what Eclipse award Exceller should have won over what winner.