Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Yes, Arazi won because of the dominating performance over a good Bertrando, not because he won some turf event in Europe.

I dont think Singspeil should have won it with that record, it must have been a very very weak year. Who was the runner up?

If Foreign results counted then Sahkee should have been horse of the year over Tiznow at Belmont, Tiznow was very ordinary that year.

If Foreign results counted Ridgewood Pearl should have been champion turf horse instead of Northern Spur. I could go on an on.

You completely avoid the question. The question was WHY DID SINGSPIEL WIN IT? Not whether you thought he should or whether you agree with them counting foreign records. And the only answer is because they DO consider foreign records. You can argue forever about whether or not they should consider them but how can you debate the fact that they do?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Linny

There are no rules in Eclipse voting. In fact it is often very subjective. Singspiel is but one example.
It sometimes just depends on the competition. As good as Proud Spell and Music Note are, I would venture a guess that the "best" 3yo filly to race in the US this year was Goldikova. She crushed older males and her dominating performance over Classic runner up Henrythenavigator and 3x G1 winner Darjina (in the G1 Prix du Moulin) and 2 length loss to the Arc winner mark as her superior. In a year when there were no outstanding 3yo fillies she could be a solid candidate. This year we have Indian Blessing, Proud Spell and Music Note so we don't "need" to look outside the box.

The male sprinters this year are a mess. Since Street Boss has a true campaign, not one big race and one debacle, I'd lean toward him.

As much as I like Intangroo, the one time she and Indian Blessing met, IB handled her solidly. IB gets the nod.

I'm not opposed to counting foreign races for US based runners (Curlin, BTB) but less convinced about counting non US races for non US based runners. US horses deserve credit for good showing overseas. I'm sure that foreign voters give points to horses that ship to the US and win or run well in awarding whatever awards they may have. I tend to think that to earn an award, a horse should have a campaign and that it should be US based.

If you give the nod to IB because of the head to head, why not Ventura, who handled IB easily and also had another grade two win in an open company sprint earlier in the year?

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm curious KG, and forgive me if you have already answered this as I don't have the patience to read this entire thread, if you knew before this weekend that Zenyatta was returning next year, would you ( personally ) have been more forgiving towards the connections for running in the Distaff?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm curious KG, and forgive me if you have already answered this as I don't have the patience to read this entire thread, if you knew before this weekend that Zenyatta was returning next year, would you ( personally ) have been more forgiving towards the connections for running in the Distaff?

There is a fine line that's in play here. On one hand, I absolutely wanted to see her in the Classic this year. I thought she fit and that she deserved a shot at history. But at the same time, while I may call her connections chickens, I could understand the how they were feeling. Shirreffs obviously spends more time with her than I do and knows her better and if he didn't feel like she was up to it, you have to defer to that even though it's disappointing to you as a fan. Maybe he felt mentally she wasn't up to it or maybe it was physically. That part, I could understand. But the problem that I have is when you decide that you aren't going to take that road and then campaign in the media about what how your horse deserves to be recognized. I say take your Distaff trophy and check and be satisfied with that. That's the path you chose. Don't say that the reward is not worth the risk......and then campaign for the reward after not taking the risk. And maybe it wasn't his intention but to bring up Eight Belles and suggest that had a part in why he didn't want to run the risk? I personally feel that was an attempt to get a few people that would hold it against him for not running in the Classic to say "yeah, I can understand where he's coming from" and not hold it against him. There are too many countless example of females that run successfully against the boys and don't die for him to use that example as justification for not trying it.

I've said a lot but to answer your question, no, I would not have been more forgiving. You know as well as anyone with these animals that tomorrow is not promised. Sometimes, there is a limited window of opportunity there to take shots at history. Azeri is a very recent and similar example to Zenyatta. Her best shot would have been 2002 when she was at her best. Zenyatta may never be better than she is now and the opportunity may never be as good as it was Saturday. It's like those trainers that skip the BC Juvenile with a horse that's ready to win now because they are trying to save something for the Derby. Skipping today for a race six months down the line has never been something I would subscribe too. I've always believed in strike while the iron is hot.

[blackthroatedwind]

How did he campaign through the media? Someone asked him a question...what is he supposed to say...." she doesn't deserve to be considered for HOY? "

They raced Zenyatta frequently this year. They shipped her to Arkansas. They ran her in a race for $2 Million where she was 3:5. I have a hard time seeing how they didn't make the right choice for themselves, the horse, and, quite frankly, for the fans.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you give the nod to IB because of the head to head, why not Ventura, who handled IB easily and also had another grade two win in an open company sprint earlier in the year?

If we are talking sprint campaigns, I only count Ventura's 2 sprints. To me her turf routes though good, are meaningless, That means she had a 2 race "campaign" in sprints where IB had a fuller season of sprints. Honestly, if Ventura did win, I wouldn't be outraged as she's clearly a very good sprinting filly and beat IB fair and square.


As for the original point of the thread, I agree with BTW. Sherriffs is supporting his filly for HOY. If bozo's who couldn't tell Zenyatta from Curlin can rant all week on the relative merits of each, why shouldn't the trainer of Zenyatta take he position that she's a HOY candidate?

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Linny

If we are talking sprint campaigns, I only count Ventura's 2 sprints. To me her turf routes though good, are meaningless, That means she had a 2 race "campaign" in sprints where IB had a fuller season of sprints. Honestly, if Ventura did win, I wouldn't be outraged as she's clearly a very good sprinting filly and beat IB fair and square.

Didnt Midnight Lute win the sprint championship with only 2 solid sprint races last year. He wasnt dominating all year long or even sprinting for that matter. I think mostly what they look at here is the BC to crown their champ.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How did he campaign through the media? Someone asked him a question...what is he supposed to say...." she doesn't deserve to be considered for HOY? "

They raced Zenyatta frequently this year. They shipped her to Arkansas. They ran her in a race for $2 Million where she was 3:5. I have a hard time seeing how they didn't make the right choice for themselves, the horse, and, quite frankly, for the fans.

I have no doubt it was the right choice for themselves. The horse though? I don't know about that. She's not some little filly that would get bounced around and intimidated by some bigger males. Hell, she's bigger than the boys are. She might have intimidated them. And I completely disagree with you that this was the right choice for the fans. I think by an overwhelming majority, the fans would have rather seen her in the Classic than in the Distaff.

Getting back to your earlier question, I don't just want to see her race any males. I wanted to see her take on the best. A lot of people make a big deal out of Personal Ensign beating the boys. I don't. I mean, it was Gulch and King's Swan. I respect Gulch but beating him at 9f at that stage of his career wasn't an overwhelming accomplishment. And it was a three horse field. If I could have known in advance that for sure they'd bring Zenyatta back next year and they'd try her against the males and the males are Mast Track and Two Step Salsa and some of those other second rate horses out here in Cali, don't bother.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Didnt Midnight Lute win the sprint championship with only 2 solid sprint races last year. He wasnt dominating all year long or even sprinting for that matter. I think mostly what they look at here is the BC to crown their champ.

Exactly. And this year, he might win it again with only one win.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think by an overwhelming majority, the fans would have rather seen her in the Classic than in the Distaff.

Yes and nobody more than ESPN would have preferred this too.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm curious KG, and forgive me if you have already answered this as I don't have the patience to read this entire thread, if you knew before this weekend that Zenyatta was returning next year, would you ( personally ) have been more forgiving towards the connections for running in the Distaff?

Dont forget the owner had a horse who finished third in the dang race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Yes and nobody more than ESPN would have preferred this too.

The network execs were happier with her running Friday. She was the key horse to their Ladies Day thing. The racing people at ESPN (Bailey, Moss, etc), they probably would have rather her be in the Classic.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly. And this year, he might win it again with only one win.

I think that would be a shame.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I have no doubt it was the right choice for themselves. The horse though? I don't know about that. She's not some little filly that would get bounced around and intimidated by some bigger males. Hell, she's bigger than the boys are. She might have intimidated them. And I completely disagree with you that this was the right choice for the fans. I think by an overwhelming majority, the fans would have rather seen her in the Classic than in the Distaff.

Getting back to your earlier question, I don't just want to see her race any males. I wanted to see her take on the best. A lot of people make a big deal out of Personal Ensign beating the boys. I don't. I mean, it was Gulch and King's Swan. I respect Gulch but beating him at 9f at that stage of his career wasn't an overwhelming accomplishment. And it was a three horse field. If I could have known in advance that for sure they'd bring Zenyatta back next year and they'd try her against the males and the males are Mast Track and Two Step Salsa and some of those other second rate horses out here in Cali, don't bother.

So you think the horse is in her stall stomping around since she didn't get a shot at the Classic? She was absolutely placed in the race she belonged in the most. She beat Cocoa Beach by around a length. That seems to be forgotten around here.

I think you need to brush up on the merits of Gulch and King's Swan....and compare them to the mediocrities mascarading as Grade 1 horses these days. In any way comparing them to Two Step Salsa and Mast Track is grossly unfair.

Now, I'm going to get back to stomping around MY stall.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So you think the horse is in her stall stomping around since she didn't get a shot at the Classic? She was absolutely placed in the race she belonged in the most. She beat Cocoa Beach by around a length. That seems to be forgotten around here.

I think you need to brush up on the merits of Gulch and King's Swan....and compare them to the mediocrities mascarading as Grade 1 horses these days. In any way comparing them to Two Step Salsa and Mast Track is grossly unfair.

Now, I'm going to get back to stomping around MY stall.

No I don't think she's stomping around in her stall angry at all. Not anymore than you think she's in her stall wiping sweat from her brow in relief of not having to face the boys in the Classic.

I wasn't comparing the merits of Gulch and King's Swan at all. I know what those horses did and what they were. What I was simply saying was that they weren't considered the upper echelon of the male runners in their year just like Two Step and Mast Track would be facing males but nowhere near the upper echelon's of the male horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No I don't think she's stomping around in her stall angry at all. Not anymore than you think she's in her stall wiping sweat from her brow in relief of not having to face the boys in the Classic.

I wasn't comparing the merits of Gulch and King's Swan at all. I know what those horses did and what they were. What I was simply saying was that they weren't considered the upper echelon of the male runners in their year just like Two Step and Mast Track would be facing males but nowhere near the upper echelon's of the male horses.

Gulch was definitely considered in the upper echelon of male runners that year and King's Swan was close....and only considered below the top because we actually had good horses running then.

As one of the Rastas so eloquently put it, one cold winter day at Aqueduct, as King Swan was repulsing a challenge while carrying 130ish pounds....." and NOOOOOOOOBODY passes the Swan! "

[Danzig]

wasn't gulch an eclipse award winner that year? to compare him to mast track is a bit much, isn't it?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

wasn't gulch an eclipse award winner that year? to compare him to mast track is a bit much, isn't it?

Come on people. I'm not comparing them in ability. I'm comparing them in relation to the best runners of their year. That's not the same. In 1988, Gulch was the champion sprinter. He won the Met Mile too. But Personal Ensign beat him at 9f. That was beyond the distance that he was trained to specialize at that year. So don't tell me about how he won the Wood the year before. In 1988, Gulch's wins were the Sprint, Met Mile, Carter, and the Portero Grande. King's Swan was the epitome of a tough veteran the had to always be respected. In terms of ability, he and Gulch are like night and day compared to Two Step Salsa and Mast Track. Hell, in today's game, Gulch and King's Swan might be able to win Eclipse awards as champion older male and champion sprinter. That's not the comparison I was making though. As a router in 1988, Gulch was behind the likes of Alysheba, Bet Twice, Lost Code, Cryptoclearance, Cutlass Reality, Forty Niner, Waquoit, Ferdinand.....he was not a top level router.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Come on people. I'm not comparing them in ability. I'm comparing them in relation to the best runners of their year. That's not the same. In 1988, Gulch was the champion sprinter. He won the Met Mile too. But Personal Ensign beat him at 9f. That was beyond the distance that he was trained to specialize at that year. So don't tell me about how he won the Wood the year before. In 1988, Gulch's wins were the Sprint, Met Mile, Carter, and the Portero Grande. King's Swan was the epitome of a tough veteran the had to always be respected. In terms of ability, he and Gulch are like night and day compared to Two Step Salsa and Mast Track. Hell, in today's game, Gulch and King's Swan might be able to win Eclipse awards as champion older male and champion sprinter. That's not the comparison I was making though. As a router in 1988, Gulch was behind the likes of Alysheba, Bet Twice, Lost Code, Cryptoclearance, Cutlass Reality, Forty Niner, Waquoit, Ferdinand.....he was not a top level router.

You're wrong about Gulch. He was specifically trained to go long. He ran in every TC race ( he was third in the Belmont ). He didn't just win the Wood....he lost a photo to the mighty Java Gold in the Whitney. He also ran second in the Woodward to Polish Navy.

Perhaps he was ultimately better sprinting, or maybe the competition was just weaker ( and Afleet should have beaten him in both the Met and BC Sprint in 1988 ) but he was still one of the best horses in the country at 1 1/8, when there were extremely good horses running, as both a 3YO and 4YO. What he was was versatile.

It's not so clear Waquoit and Crypto were consistently better than Gulch at 1 1/8...and spare me Cutlass Reality. I knew Cutlass Reality before his miracle transformation in California....and he was no Gulch.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're wrong about Gulch. He was specifically trained to go long. He ran in every TC race ( he was third in the Belmont ). He didn't just win the Wood....he lost a photo to the mighty Java Gold in the Whitney. He also ran second in the Woodward to Polish Navy.

Perhaps he was ultimately better sprinting, or maybe the competition was just weaker ( and Afleet should have beaten him in both the Met and BC Sprint in 1988 ) but he was still one of the best horses in the country at 1 1/8, when there were extremely good horses running, as both a 3YO and 4YO. What he was was versatile.

It's not so clear Waquoit and Crypto were consistently better than Gulch at 1 1/8...and spare me Cutlass Reality. I knew Cutlass Reality before his miracle transformation in California....and he was no Gulch.

Those TC races were in 1987. That Wood was 1987. That Whitney was 1987. That Woodward was 1987. Maybe it's wrong to say he wasn't trained as a router in 1988 but he lost every single time they tried him in routes. Lost Code and Cryptoclearance beat him at Oaklawn. Alysheba and Bet Twice beat him in the Iselin. Cutlass Reality beat him in the Californian. Personal Ensign beat him in the Whitney. Now, the reality is that all of those were really good horse and you are probably right that he had more success sprinting because the competition was weaker. But while he was a very good horse and very versatile one and one of my favorite horses ever, I do not think he was one of the upper echelon of routers in the country that year. I don't think he was on the level of Alysheba, Forty Niner, Seeking the Gold, Waquiot, Cutlass Reality, Ferdinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code, and Cryptoclearance. Maybe it's a matter of how deep you are willing to go when classifying what's upper echelon to you. For me the top level was Alysheba. The next level was Bet Twice, Lost Code, Forty Niner, and Seeking the Gold. The next had Ferdinand, Waquoit, Cutlass Reality, and Ferdinand. Gulch would come in after that. Again, I think on ability, Gulch had the kind of talent that could have won him HOY this year. I was not comparing them in ability.