Invasor, Excitement?

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think YOU could have won the Pimlico Special, Suburban, and Whitney if u were racing against some of the mules that Invasor has been running against.

well, that's original...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think YOU could have won the Pimlico Special, Suburban, and Whitney if u were racing against some of the mules that Invasor has been running against.

As opposed to the monsters of the breed that Lava Man was beating?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

As opposed to the monsters of the breed that Lava Man was beating?

I don't think u will ever find a single post on any forum where I have said anything good about what Lava Man has been facing. I think they are equally pathetic. In fact, I was most upset that they didn't send Lava Man to the Arlington Million instead of the Pacific Classic because I am tired of seeing him beat up on the same bums over and over again. Where is the fun in watching that?

[slotdirt]

Hmm....looks like I missed another blocky breakdown.

Anyway, good races abound this weekend and next. Time for me to officially get back in the game after pretty much taking a three month hiatus since Belmont day.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think u will ever find a single post on any forum where I have said anything good about what Lava Man has been facing. I think they are equally pathetic. In fact, I was most upset that they didn't send Lava Man to the Arlington Million instead of the Pacific Classic because I am tired of seeing him beat up on the same bums over and over again. Where is the fun in watching that?

It really is one of my pet peeves the whole "Who did he beat?". I think we posted something on this nature a little while back. We have heard the same knock on all three horses.
Tell me who were they supposed to beat? Who were they ducking? Were they racing in obscure races that nobody heard of? The last I checked The SA "Cap, Hwd GC, Pac Classic, Pim Special, Suburban, Whitney, Preakness, Jim Dandy, Travers were all historic(maybe with the exception of the Pac classic only 25 yrs old) prestigious, High Profile races. Among the top races the sport has to offer. So again I ask, Who were they supposed to beating?

[Gander]

As long as all three horses get the same "who did they beat" knock. Its not fair to just give Lava Man that knock and not Bernardini and Invasor (and vice versa). Because lets face it, none of these 3 horses have yet to beat the very best competition. I guess we'll find out who the best horse is in the coming weeks/months. Fact is these are the 3 best dirt horses in training right now and its hard not to get excited about a possible clash of all 3 at Churchill. I am getting very excited to see Invasor and Bernardini mix it up next Saturday.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think u will ever find a single post on any forum where I have said anything good about what Lava Man has been facing. I think they are equally pathetic. In fact, I was most upset that they didn't send Lava Man to the Arlington Million instead of the Pacific Classic because I am tired of seeing him beat up on the same bums over and over again. Where is the fun in watching that?

Then why continue to make the same " who have they beaten " posts? We're not idiots here, well most of us aren't, we understand the overall level of competition isn't what it was in 1957, or 1967, or any number of past years, but that doesn't make it impossible to judge a horse's " true " ability.

Invasor is a good horse, a very good horse, and the nature of his wins proves that ( the same could easily be said about Lava Man ). Each has overcome some adversity....Invasor was forced to run as his own rabbit in the Pimlico Special and was still able to rerally to run down the loose speed. He made what could easily be called a premature move into a strong pace in the Whitney and was still able to hold off Sun King who enjoyed a much sweeter trip. No, Sun King is not the be all and end all, but he is no slouch either as evidenced by his narrow defeat in the Met Mile and previous resume of at least solid races. And, if you look at speed figures, he has run at least acceptably " fast " in these races.

I can't break down Lava Man's races as well simply because I don't follow California racing, but his win in the SA Handicap seemed very legitimate to me. He was right on the heels of a contentious pace, one that buried favored High Limit, and still held off perfect trip Magnum ( who was coming off a very solid effort...though obviously he's tailed off ). He encountered severe early trouble in his return this summer and still managed to gut out a victory and while the P Classic was obviously a less than stellar field he won like a dominent horse is supposed to win.

You say he should have run in the Arlington Million instead of beating up " the same bums over and over again ". You have to be kidding me. He should have run in a race he was extremely unlikely to win for the same purse he was odds on to win? His connections have run in all the big races for going on two years but he should have chosen more difficult spots because.......you weren't getting any pleasure out of his campaign? The simple fact is had his connections run him in the Million they, in all likelihood, would have been ridiculed for passing the easy money in the P Classic in the hopes of winning a race they were, at best, 25% as likely to win.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Gander

As long as all three horses get the same "who did they beat" knock. Its not fair to just give Lava Man that knock and not Bernardini and Invasor (and vice versa). Because lets face it, none of these 3 horses have yet to beat the very best competition. I guess we'll find out who the best horse is in the coming weeks/months. Fact is these are the 3 best dirt horses in training right now and its hard not to get excited about a possible clash of all 3 at Churchill. I am getting very excited to see Invasor and Bernardini mix it up next Saturday.

Oh yeah, I hear ya. I love the one knock on Lava Man " Well he didn't ship out of SoCal" Why? Why on Earth would he ship out to race? He is a SoCal horse and there are Three great Prestigious Grade I's out there. And the other knock on Bernardini that gets me shaking my head is, "Well, he hasn't raced against older horses yet" Why would he have raced against older horse when they are the big summer races and his goal was A triplce crown race and the Travers.
But anywho like you I am so excited for this years edition of the JCGC. Assuming no major upset happens. Something really special will result in it. Either we have a crowning of the next Super 3 yr. Old or the next Super Horse that won 4 straight Historic Grade I's.

[Gander]

Bernardini didnt ship out of NY (save for the Preakness) for the same reason. Why? There are top notch races with huge purses where he can run on tracks he likes against cupcakes like Dr Pleasure. Why would Lava Man? I mean it makes no sense. I'm sick of the arguuments and cant wait to see all 3 answer the questions on the track.

Originally Posted by todko

New York racing is among the finest in the nation. Delaware Park has some good races and is a fair track to play. I have nothing against East Coast racing. I routinely bet Delaware and Colonial. Belmont also.

What bothers me is the bias of the press, notably the DRF. The written press seems biased to the east while the television press (TVG, HRTV) are biased to the west coast. It's tough to see a big race on hold while TVG shows the post parade at Fairplex.

Quite frankly I don't see a bias at all, on either front.
I think that its obvious that TVG is based on the West Coast, thats where the station is and their employees as well. You can't just put some guys on a plane each day to go and do Delaware Park.
As far as the DRF goes, I don't see it. You have Hovdey, Free, and Privman covering from out there, and plenty of coverage.
Hovdey's columns are consistently about Cali racing and its figures only. Whatever.
I haven't seen any bias in handing out year end votes, none at all. Last year Artie lost a tight vote to a horse who started his campaign in Cali. If there was going to be a bias, I'd think Artie would have won the award. LITF got the sprint award easily, despite never beating elders and only winning one grade one. No bias there either.
I guess maybe people there think horses like Lava Man and RHT don't get enough credit, so they blame it on a bias. Look, thats nonsense as well, complete nonsense. This may shock you, but our standard DRF edition always carries the Cali tracks and their pp's, and we get to watch it on Tv everyday. So its not like noone sees whats going on.
The fact is that horses like RHT and Lava run in the same place against the same horses all year long, who aren't very good horses. They only meet East Coast horses on their home grounds(something that anyone with a brain has been able to see gives a heavy advantage to Cali horses, just look at the results of the BC dirt races run out there over the years, how did Brocco, Success Express, and Action This Day make out after the BC? Come to think of it, SKYWALKER????????).
Noone can honestly get overly excited about watching the same horse sbeat up on the same rivals like Magnum and in RHT's case Imperialism over and over again.
They get all credit they ever deserve when they ship and win against good horses. Look at Azeri.
We know the people awards are always based on earnings, maybe they shouldnt be but its really always been that way.
Show me some proof or examples of this bias, cause all I ever hear is incessant whining about it with no specific intelligent examples cited.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

As opposed to the monsters of the breed that Lava Man was beating?

Don't forget the monsters that Bernardini has been beating.

[boswd]

And what gets me about this whole East Coast Bias thing is look at who is the trainer in the game right now who has been the biggest media darling and probably the most well know trainer outside of regular Horse racing fans. Bob Bafffert, a Cali based trainer. And who made him out that way? the media. Look at their past Jockey's they have been among the sport most recognizable names _ Laffit Pincay, The Shoe, Chris McCarron, Gary Stevens, P Val. Eddie D, beside their accomplishments who make them household names? The media!!
Drives me nuts when West Coasters whine when everything doesn't go there way.

[blackthroatedwind]

There is no East Coast/West Coast bias...only some insecurity issue that, it seems to me, only comes from West Coast people. A good horse is a good horse. Anyone can see that. Part of the problem, and I guess this has been said here before, is that a horse stabled on the East Coast tends to ship around a bit, whether Florida in the Winter or Kentucky in the Spring or Fall plus Delaware in the summer, as well as obviously New York. In California there is really only the SA-Hollywood-Del Mar circuit so you don't get as many different opportunities. Thus a good horse on the East Coast has an easier time shipping for opportunities to prove itself. However, West Coast horses ship and certainly hold their own, if they're good enough.

It's not like anybody knowledgable is proclaiming " a good East Coast horse will always beat a good West Coast horse " or any such silliness. It is just misguided defensiveness.

I do not believe in the bias theory. It does not explain the year Heavenly Prize(East) beat Lakeway(West) or the year Bobby Frankel(Everywhere) beat Joe Orseno(East) for Eclipses. It was just bad voting rules both times. It reminded me of Bush "beating" Gore.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I do not believe in the bias theory. It does not explain the year Heavenly Prize(East) beat Lakeway(West) or the year Bobby Frankel(Everywhere) beat Joe Orseno(East) for Eclipses. It was just bad voting rules both times. It reminded me of Bush "beating" Gore.

Good example of Lakeway, didn't she drown Inside Information in the Mother Goose and ended up looking unbeatable, and 2-5, in the Alabama where Heavenly Prize blew her doors off? In defense of Lakeway, she may have ultimately been injured, but certainly there was no bias against her.

What about Balance this year? She went to Keeneland with OK looking pps but somehow was hailed as the second coming, ran poorly in the Ashland and was still favored in the KY Oaks. What was the bias against her?

[somerfrost]

I think the time to engage in this debate will be after the BCC IF not all the "big three" make the race! The JCGC should be a pretty good determinant of which "east coast" horse is the best...if all three make the BCC then the argument will be settled on the track! For once, I hope that is the case!! As I've said for some time...I believe Lava Man will prevail! I'm not really interested in endlessly debating my position, I'm just gonna stay quiet and hope he make the race!

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Good example of Lakeway, didn't she drown Inside Information in the Mother Goose and ended up looking unbeatable, and 2-5, in the Alabama where Heavenly Prize blew her doors off? In defense of Lakeway, she may have ultimately been injured, but certainly there was no bias against her.

What about Balance this year? She went to Keeneland with OK looking pps but somehow was hailed as the second coming, ran poorly in the Ashland and was still favored in the KY Oaks. What was the bias against her?

I agree with you about Lakeway; Steven Crist wrote an interesting article about her after the vote. He had voted for her, from what I could deduce. I loved her because of her breeding, but I was BIASED. She never came back to her best after she suffered nagging injuries.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I agree with you about Lakeway; Steven Crist wrote an interesting article about her after the vote. He had voted for her, from what I could deduce. I loved her because of her breeding, but I was BIASED. She never came back to her best after she suffered nagging injuries.

She has a yearling by Fu Pig. Wonder how that one looks...

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

She has a yearling by Fu Pig. Wonder how that one looks...

I appreciate the information. I like FUPEG!!!!

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I appreciate the information. I like FUPEG!!!!

LOL... I never did, although he's a nice looking horse.