Pletcher going to California

Originally Posted by Independent George

I'll take the "Boy George"---kind of a compliment, since I haven't been referred to as a boy for many years.
Whatever, It's a moot point. Everything we all have said is speculation. I believe the same guys with the same kinds of horses and the premier jocks in the East will be at Gulfstream this year.You make this veiled statement about "knowing" that one major jock will move west this year.Anyone can say that and be almost assured of being right.Name the major jockey--put yourself out on that big limb.
You make some legitimate points but then you spoil it all by telling us Fairgrounds will draw "many guys" there. What guys? The usual suspects? I used to like to play Fairgrounds but, talk about a place whose product has deteriorated as far as the betting public is concerned and that's the place. They can't even get full fields for state-bred conditional claimers. Their daily cards two years ago were a disgrace.What trainer that usually goes to Gulfstream is going to go to Fairgrounds this year?
Peace, brother..........we shall see who's right; who's wrong, come January.

Georgie,
I meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot to.
For some reason you and Round Pen took what i was saying in this thread as personal towards you. It really confused me as to why until I guessed that both of you were either involved in the business or lived in Florida.
Its not personal and wasn't intended to be.
I was all over Gulf for such a lousy job on our old board this past winter, long before I knew of either of you existing in the world.
I actually think Calder is a very underrated track, both from a betting standpoint and a racing standpoint as well. They have some spectacular days and were the first track to have the idea of what now is an accepted industry standard, to package a bunch of big stakes on one card.
The horseman there are underrated as well, not only the trainers, but all of the talented guys who run training centers and farms.
Of course everything is speculation, but I truly believe I will be proven right as far as my assertation that Gulf will again offer small purses and minimums for graded stakes, and awful weekday claiming filled cards. And trust me, I won't forget this thread. When Gulf starts you can count on me doing a daily thread on the purses and races being run.
I'm certainly hoping that Gulf turns it around some year as it has been such a vital part of racing on the East Coast for years and years.
As far as naming names Georgie, I rarely if ever do that. Its just not right. You don't go out to dinner with someone and repeat something that they have said on a message board while naming them. Surely you can appreciate this. And I said that this person said they were CONSIDERING going, not definitely going.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Georgie,
I meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot to.
For some reason you and Round Pen took what i was saying in this thread as personal towards you. It really confused me as to why until I guessed that both of you were either involved in the business or lived in Florida.
Its not personal and wasn't intended to be.
I was all over Gulf for such a lousy job on our old board this past winter, long before I knew of either of you existing in the world.
I actually think Calder is a very underrated track, both from a betting standpoint and a racing standpoint as well. They have some spectacular days and were the first track to have the idea of what now is an accepted industry standard, to package a bunch of big stakes on one card.
The horseman there are underrated as well, not only the trainers, but all of the talented guys who run training centers and farms.
Of course everything is speculation, but I truly believe I will be proven right as far as my assertation that Gulf will again offer small purses and minimums for graded stakes, and awful weekday claiming filled cards. And trust me, I won't forget this thread. When Gulf starts you can count on me doing a daily thread on the purses and races being run.
I'm certainly hoping that Gulf turns it around some year as it has been such a vital part of racing on the East Coast for years and years.
As far as naming names Georgie, I rarely if ever do that. Its just not right. You don't go out to dinner with someone and repeat something that they have said on a message board while naming them. Surely you can appreciate this. And I said that this person said they were CONSIDERING going, not definitely going.

Calder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Calder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

Stud I agree completely. They do a hell of a job down there and put on some good shows. December is a great month there.

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by SentToStudCalder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

You say its headed in the right direction?
I have a few questions for you then.
1) Are the purses there not embarassingly small given the type of horses who winter there(like the ones YOU cited) and the fact that there is a huge horse population to draw from?
2) Are the weekday cards not an absolute disgrace containing nothing but cheap claimers and maiden claimers(as cited by trainers last year including Frankel when they went to management to complain about it)?

I also agree that I much rather go to Calder December over January Gulfstream. That being said you must see the double standard in your comments. You blast GP for points 1 and 2 above. These statements are consistent with the Calder in December as well (you will see many of the same horses running for lesser purses in December at Calder that you will see at GP in January). For Calder however your quote is "I agree completely. They do a hell of a job down there and put on some good shows. December is a great month there." I don't see you how you can have it both ways?

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

Originally Posted by SentToStudCalder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

You say its headed in the right direction?
I have a few questions for you then.
1) Are the purses there not embarassingly small given the type of horses who winter there(like the ones YOU cited) and the fact that there is a huge horse population to draw from?
2) Are the weekday cards not an absolute disgrace containing nothing but cheap claimers and maiden claimers(as cited by trainers last year including Frankel when they went to management to complain about it)?

I also agree that I much rather go to Calder December over January Gulfstream. That being said you must see the double standard in your comments. You blast GP for points 1 and 2 above. These statements are consistent with the Calder in December as well (you will see many of the same horses running for lesser purses in December at Calder that you will see at GP in January). For Calder however your quote is "I agree completely. They do a hell of a job down there and put on some good shows. December is a great month there." I don't see you how you can have it both ways?

NIce try, but you aren't dealing with an idiot here.
Purses are based on handle primarily. Calder has to race from late April until January 2nd or 3rd every year, non stop. Are you really not bright enough to see that?
In 7 of those 8 months the cards are what they are, cards fitting of a track not offering major purses. The expenses they bear come from 8 staright months of racing and maintenance and employees. You don't raise purses for one month just because some bigger name trainers and horses are in town.
They have to structure those purses based on the whole 8 months.

Gulf is a completely different story. They race for not even 4 months and do a much larger handle. Which is what makes it even more sickening that their purses are about the same as Calder's.
You also miss teh point that Stud made. In December the track DOES give away more purse money. They take advantage of the increased horses and talent in town and write many MSW's and grass races and allowances.
Pity that Gulf doesn't do the same huh? Especially since noone at Calder is charging you 20 bucks to sit down at a carrel/desk to wtach races all day.
YOu wanna debate with me you are gonna have to a lot better than that!!!

[Scav]

I love betting Calder in December, there are some real REAL solid 3/1 and 4/1 horses that you can unload on.

I also feel that I am more comfortable betting down there because I can look at a horse and almost see the plan that they are trying to put together, especially for those horses that seemed talented enough to run in the graded stakes down there all winter

[bogeydaman]

[html]December is a great month there.[html]

Then things changed. The racing has been destroyed at Gulf, plain and simple. The incredible amount of claiming races, VERY cheap horses and non2 life claimers(which are even worse than the regular ones) have left most gamblers unhappy, and horsemen even unhappier.

IMO the quality of racing at Calder in December and racing during the Jan-March Gulfstream meets are comparable (and if they are comparable I would rather go to CRC for all the reasons you state). I am merely stating that this is not the picture you are painting in your prior statments and in your quotes above. IMO they take the same cheap horses running 2/3 of the races at CRC and run them at GP. The Saturday stakes "model / weekends" are similar as well (stick 4-6 stakes races onto one card every couple weeks). This is not new to the past 2 years. Midweek cards at GP were always filled with CRC, MON, CD rejects for cheap purses (I have been going to both for 15 years).

If you want to make the argument that we should expect more from GP for all the reasons you state I can't argue with that. I absolutely believe they have the ability to write better races and have an obligation to do so. In their defense and I don't have the data to back it up (I am sure others on this board do) but from my memory the purse structure at GP has been comparable the past 2 years to the pre Stronach area. This is despite horrible attendance and from what my memory has been a horrible handle the past 2 years.

I am giving them a partial pass for the past 2 years (quality of 3 year old racing only, not facility design) and am expecting a turnaround if not this year then by next (slots).

I am obviously not going to sway your opinion so we agree to disagree.

Peace out.

P.S. I went from an 1 / week attendee prior to 1 / month attendee the past 2 years (IE I hear ya)

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

[html]December is a great month there.[html]

Then things changed. The racing has been destroyed at Gulf, plain and simple. The incredible amount of claiming races, VERY cheap horses and non2 life claimers(which are even worse than the regular ones) have left most gamblers unhappy, and horsemen even unhappier.

IMO the quality of racing at Calder in December and racing during the Jan-March Gulfstream meets are comparable (and if they are comparable I would rather go to CRC for all the reasons you state). I am merely stating that this is not the picture you are painting in your prior statments and in your quotes above. IMO they take the same cheap horses running 2/3 of the races at CRC and run them at GP. The Saturday stakes "model / weekends" are similar as well (stick 4-6 stakes races onto one card every couple weeks). This is not new to the past 2 years. Midweek cards at GP were always filled with CRC, MON, CD rejects for cheap purses (I have been going to both for 15 years).

If you want to make the argument that we should expect more from GP for all the reasons you state I can't argue with that. I absolutely believe they have the ability to write better races and have an obligation to do so. In their defense and I don't have the data to back it up (I am sure others on this board do) but from my memory the purse structure at GP has been comparable the past 2 years to the pre Stronach area. This is despite horrible attendance and from what my memory has been a horrible handle the past 2 years.

I am giving them a partial pass for the past 2 years (quality of 3 year old racing only, not facility design) and am expecting a turnaround if not this year then by next (slots).

I am obviously not going to sway your opinion so we agree to disagree.

Peace out.

P.S. I went from an 1 / week attendee prior to 1 / month attendee the past 2 years (IE I hear ya)

Bogey but they DO offer more purse money in December. They write many more allowances and maiden special weights as opposed to claimers.
Calder can't penalize their own horseman who race there all year by only rasing purses when the out of towners are there.
They distribute purse money based on handle.

Now with Gulf its just tragic. You only go once a month as opposed to once a week? Ouch.
The best line I have heard in regards to Gulf's sorry cards the last few years is this one, told to me by a friend who retired three years ago and bought a Florida winter place. His line was a sad but true beauty, he said " You know what the ****ing crazy thing is? I used to go to Aqueduct in the winter to bet Gulfstream. Now I'm going to Gulfstream to bet Aqueduct!!"

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Bogey but they DO offer more purse money in December. They write many more allowances and maiden special weights as opposed to claimers.
Calder can't penalize their own horseman who race there all year by only rasing purses when the out of towners are there.
They distribute purse money based on handle.

Now with Gulf its just tragic. You only go once a month as opposed to once a week? Ouch.
The best line I have heard in regards to Gulf's sorry cards the last few years is this one, told to me by a friend who retired three years ago and bought a Florida winter place. His line was a sad but true beauty, he said " You know what the ****ing crazy thing is? I used to go to Aqueduct in the winter to bet Gulfstream. Now I'm going to Gulfstream to bet Aqueduct!!"

You seem to know very little about the Gulfstream situation and what the business plan is. You might want to stick to talking about something that you know about. Gulfstream was built with slots in mind and they are coming. The meet will be a top meet in the country by 2008. Horseman love both facilities. Everyone knew they would have to live with growing pains.

Unlike the disgusting dorms NYRA provides at Saratoga and Belmont, Gulfstream has some of the nicest dorms in the world for the backstretch workers. I guess NYRA puts all the money in the purses. Who cares about the backstretch workers. Right?

Originally Posted by georgewashington

You seem to know very little about the Gulfstream situation and what the business plan is. You might want to stick to talking about something that you know about. Gulfstream was built with slots in mind and they are coming. The meet will be a top meet in the country by 2008. Horseman love both facilities. Everyone knew they would have to live with growing pains.

Unlike the disgusting dorms NYRA provides at Saratoga and Belmont, Gulfstream has some of the nicest dorms in the world for the backstretch workers. I guess NYRA puts all the money in the purses. Who cares about the backstretch workers. Right?

Oh I'm quite aware of the plan!! The plan is to run lower quality racing with rock bottom purses until slots come in and then they can pay all the freight.
Funny, but Ky and Cali and Ny don't have slots and they all pay purses much higher.
Horsemen may love the facilities but as many have wondered aloud, why go to the work of installing such great surfaces to race on and the great Palm Meadows training center if all you are gonna run is claiming races?
Two years in a row the horseman have gone in and complained about the races being written. Its been covered in the DRF, in case you don't read that publication.

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Oh I'm quite aware of the plan!! The plan is to run lower quality racing with rock bottom purses until slots come in and then they can pay all the freight.
Funny, but Ky and Cali and Ny don't have slots and they all pay purses much higher.
Horsemen may love the facilities but as many have wondered aloud, why go to the work of installing such great surfaces to race on and the great Palm Meadows training center if all you are gonna run is claiming races?
Two years in a row the horseman have gone in and complained about the races being written. Its been covered in the DRF, in case you don't read that publication.

Yes, the horseman hate it and that is why Barbaro, Bernardini, Jazil, Sharp Humor, Showing Up, Keyed Entry, etc. all were based there.

Have you seen the condition books for this winter? I am going to guess you are making your statements based on absolutely nothing. Please learn to stick to things that you know about. Let me guess, you know everything and you know what the condition books are going to be. Last I checked, everyone is coming back this winter. How are you criticizing Gulfstreams racing for this winter without seeing the condition books?


Slots will do for Gulfstream what they did for Delaware Park. Purses will double.

I am going to assume you know nothing about slots and the revenue they will bring in. Probably because in New York they can't get their act together and get them.

Please let me know why NYRA can't provide liveable dorms for the workers but poor old Gulfstream can?

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Stud,
Thats not the real reason. I told you this past summer I had spoken to more than one trainer(Todd wasnt one of them) who was fed up with the purses and lack of allowances and msw's at Gulf. There are more who will announce it in the future.
But none of em are gonna come out and bash Gulf. 1) because they all train for or want the opportunity to train for Stronach. 2) Because they don't want their stall space reduced.

This is absolutely wrong.

1) I am sure very few think they are going to train for Frank. He isn't exactly holding auditions for trainers. Give me a break.

2) If the racing is so bad and they hate it so much, why are they so concerned with stall space reductions, which would not happen anyway.

Where do you think up these ridiculous things?

Where are all the announcements that you are talking about leaving for California. You know that is an outright lie. What are they waiting on. Pletcher plans to have some out there by Nov. 1.

Pletchers decision to go West was based on numerous things (track safety) and Michael McCarthy (KY Based) will be running the show. He will have just as many horses at Gulfstream as he always has and his top 2yr olds are headed to gulfstream.

Pletcher's parents live in Ocala and the Gulfstream winters are instrumental to his operation.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by georgewashington

.

Hmmmm, George Washington, the horse, was sold by Lael Stables.

Where have we seen this before? Gets a little tiresome.

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Hmmmm, George Washington, the horse, was sold by Lael Stables.

Where have we seen this before? Gets a little tiresome.

Big brother knows quite a bit more than little brother. You think I am going to allow some NY jokers to bash MEC. I have money invested with them. An idiot can see this guy is posting lies about Frank and Gulfstream because he doesn't like MEC putting their foot in NYRA's business.

You want to take up this discussion with me in person, I will be at Belmont tomorrow morning. The brother and his friend will be with me if they get up.

And, yeah, I do know a little about George. Just a little.

I am well aware of who you are Andy. I wonder where you are on this issue.

"As a racing fan, I want to be sure that whoever is running racing in New York is interested in racing. I want somebody like NYRA, somebody who's proven to me in the past that they've at least done their best to run racing."


Tell your annoying friend to stop putting words in TP's mouth. TP said he was going due to the poly. I think his own words mean a little more than some guy who barely knows him.

You want to meet tomorrow, send a PM to my brother. I am taking them out to dinner now, but if you PM him I am sure he will give me the information when he checks the computer when we get back.

[Nostradamus]

Anytime tomorrow morning, but we are leaving to go up to Buffalo in the afternoon.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Seriously though, do you really think the slots are coming anytime soon? How long has Calder been trying to get slots? Jeb isn't too keen on the idea.

Gulfstream yes

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35279

GW

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Any chance that they get the runaround like Philly Park is now getting? I know the article says they plan on opening next month, but Jeb has been pretty adament about trying to keep them out.

Jeb is leaving in a few weeks. Crist and Davis have both said they will go with what the people wanted and they voted for slots.

There are some Republicans that are upset, but Paul Cellucci, the Republican former governor of Massachusetts, has a lot of influence with them, and he now works for MEC.

[Round Pen]

(Scratching Head) I could have sworn I heard someone else mention slots at Gulstream a couple of pages ago in this thread

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Round Pen

(Scratching Head) I could have sworn I heard someone else mention slots at Gulstream a couple of pages ago in this thread

George Washington knows a hell of a lot more about Gulfstream and any MEC track than Oracle. Gulfstream is going to be awesome.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by georgewashington

Big brother knows quite a bit more than little brother. You think I am going to allow some NY jokers to bash MEC. I have money invested with them. An idiot can see this guy is posting lies about Frank and Gulfstream because he doesn't like MEC putting their foot in NYRA's business.

You want to take up this discussion with me in person, I will be at Belmont tomorrow morning. The brother and his friend will be with me if they get up.

And, yeah, I do know a little about George. Just a little.

I am well aware of who you are Andy. I wonder where you are on this issue.

"As a racing fan, I want to be sure that whoever is running racing in New York is interested in racing. I want somebody like NYRA, somebody who's proven to me in the past that they've at least done their best to run racing."


Tell your annoying friend to stop putting words in TP's mouth. TP said he was going due to the poly. I think his own words mean a little more than some guy who barely knows him.

You want to meet tomorrow, send a PM to my brother. I am taking them out to dinner now, but if you PM him I am sure he will give me the information when he checks the computer when we get back.

Hey, Big Brother shows up!

A couple thoughts on your comments....

You say, "Big brother knows quite a bit more than little brother." I say that's cool. Of course, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man IS king!

You say NY Jokers are bashing MEC? Well, you're preious MEC has had ONE PROFITABLE QUARTER IN THE LAST 2 AND A HALF YEARS! They were positive $.02/share in Q1,'06.

You have money invested in MEC? And you know more than Little Brother? If you put in 10k 3 years ago, you now have $4k.

You think slots are going to save Gulfstream? Not this year and probably not next year. There is NO WAY there will be slot machines at GP this year.

And when there are slot machines, all the Blue-haired gals and old guys are going to go to the Dog Track a mile away. Frank didn't think of that.

Hopefully you can get your lil brother up in time for cartoons and Fruit Loops.

Did MEC send you a special dividend when they made $.02 Q1?