Brother Derek is a fraud...

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I wish Brother Derek nothing but good luck; he is a game, talented horse. I do not agree with you about Bernardini; illness delayed his quest for the TC jewels. He ran a huge Preakness and he has been delivering ever since. He is a brilliant animal who is good for the game.

He is where the bar has been set from most of us. The only true wyt to compare a group of horses is to race them. When BD won the Santa Anita Derby I don't think there was a horse in America that was going to beat him at home and that includes Barbaro. When Barbaro won the Kentucky Derby there wasn't a horse in the world that was going to compete with him that day and if he had stayed healthy Bernardini would of had the taste of defeat. Just the way I see it.

[dalakhani]

I dont see what the big hub bub is here about Joel is saying about Brother Derek. I dont agree with him but what is the problem that some of you are having with the opinion?

Maybe "fraud" is a harsh term but Ive been to the track enough to say that "fraud" is a rather mild way to refer to a horse that disappoints.

Opinions on horses are going to vary from good to bad. If only flowery opinions were posted here in reference to the ability of a said horse, then this place would be quite boring. Instead of bashing the "critic" wouldnt it be more constructive to simply defend the horse by stating its merits?

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If we're to believe this statement, then how do you explain the premise of this thread you started?

Namely that Brother Derek is a fraud, and that you never liked him.

How in gods name is that not negative?

True, but that doesn't mean that I think he should die or anything.....I like the horse, just not as a racing performer...I like all horses!

Fraud is a relative term....a race track term...Nobody has ever heard that statement? That surpirses me with all the NYers on this site because I'm from New Orleans and those two places probably feature the biggest "knockers" in the racing industry...

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

I couldn't have said it any better, Steve.....

Leave it up to you know who to make a mountain out of an ant hill, especially suggesting that it was a smear against a handicap man because he trains the horse?...what a loser you are, sir....you are truly sick and the stereotypical racetracker that this sport gets a bad rep for at times...

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, sometimes the kettle indeed has a couple extra coats on it as well as a seemingly continuous self-applying shellac function.

And, one does reap what one sows.

Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal.

I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win?

I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.

For the 6tH TIME - fraud is a relative term...a racetrack term....I regret using it now because of the lack fo sense of humor on this thread...sorry..\

As for your final paragraph, that is what I get paid to do in a sense....

Originally Posted by oracle80

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

I'd hate to prove you wrong yet again.......

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.

It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds.

The California horses were way overhyped.


For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing.

I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there.

I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud.

The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned.

I'm glad somebody sees what I meant....Thanks Nost....I don't mean to be maliscious with any of my posts...."fraud" has negat6ive conotations to it when used in most way, but not in racing....it is as good as "overrated" or under-achiever" where I come from....

Originally Posted by Gander

Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another.
Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin.
Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?

He's not a fraud, Gander...he is one of the best things and brightest stories this game has produced this year and every gguy who roots for the underdog or the little guy - like we all do at times - should really appreacite what Lava Man has done and cling on to him...

I was just pointing out that from an analysts standpoint he has failed everytime he has shipped out of California.....just check his PPs...doesn't mean he sucks or is a fraud in what many of you ercieve I meant by that word....

Originally Posted by oracle80

SHHHH, I already knew that(I know how he talks). And he's not my client. He's an often times partner's client. And hes also a perfectionist. If he won 10 of 11 races he'd bitch about the one he lost to anyone who would listen.
Thats what makes him so good, he hates losing and doesnt accept it well. And one of my clients wants that horse now badly, and it looks like thats where he will go if the accept the offer. Not another word about that on here please.

I think everyone knew that after that quote...that is Classic commentary from that trainer

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Oracle, you are very knowledgable, maybe more than anyone else here, but the personal attacks on Cunningham and his father are uncalled for. Saying a horse is a fraud (overrated) is not an attack. It is just saying the horse is not what people say he is. There are tons of horses like this. My brother has called Sunriver a fraud all year, and he likes the owners. That doesn't mean it is personal.

Exactly......................

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I dont understand how is he a fraud. How did he misrepresent himself? I dont get it. How can any horse be a fraud. He ran 4th in the BC Juvenile, 4the in the Derby and 4th in the Preakness. Then he has won those prep races in the spring. Again, it isnt Brother Derek's fault who he beat. He cannot help who his competition is. I dont remember Brother Derek coming out and saying he is the best. If he did then I missed it. I sometimes speak too soon and talk bad about a horse and that isnt right. But in Derek's case, he has been in all the big ones for over 1 year now. He has won some and loss some, but I dont know how you can say he or any horse is a fraud.

There was NO 3-year-old that got more press the first half of this year than Briother Derek did...NOne, zilch, nada....just pure facts...he got MUCH more attention in the media than Barbaro, Bluegrass Cat, Lawyer Ron and Sweetnorthernsaint wished they would have gotten.....that is the facts...

The two weeks leading up to the Derby at CD, there was NO horse that had more attention and press than Brother Derek.....I know because i was there every morning....they had press conferences for him every morning after he trained....Do you think Matz and the Barabro camp had that sort of attention?....Not at all. As a matter of fact, they were all in the same barn with Sweetnorthernsaint and Steppenwolfer - and Brother Derek got ALL the crowd every day.....

...he was the story, and whether or not he was bet down as the favorite in the race (by the way, his post position probably cost him from being the favorite if you want me to be quite honest...many people who understand handicapping and how the Derby is bet called that before the race even ran...) - he WAS the favorite for the Derby by all other accounts and was labled as that all spring...

Thus, when you are a BAD 4th in a short field in a non-listed stakes event after you have been working well for your second-season debut, you are going to get PLENTY of criticism form people who never believed the horse was genuinely a first-class animal of his generation....doesn't mean the horse sucks or desereves to die, or that I am making fun of Dan Hendricks for being in a wheel chair (like Oracle suggested), it just means that he is a fraud in the racetrack sense of the word - which means he was overhyped, an overachiever, etc....thats all

Hell, if he were to run in the Travers and run foruth off the layoff - then fine -but he ran 4th in a short field and had absolutely NO RESPONSE in a LISTED stakes event....

You wouldn't sit back and watch Tiger Woods win one tournament in a year, or sit back and watch Barry Bonds only hit 3 HRs in a year without making mention or noticing it, would you?...No..

It is my job as a racing analyst to noitice and acknowledge when this sort of activity happens with some of our games biggest equine figures so that people can be completely aware of the disappointment and completely understand it.....thats my job in a sense....

IMO (for all of you watcing TVG during the race), Simon Bray was trying to make excuses for his performnace saying that it will set him up nicely for next time, etc...which was all sugar-coating bull**** and I'm dissappointed as an analyst that he would mislead the public that way.....he should always be honest and educate the public...that is his job...I don't know if he was just trying to be optimistic, but ANY analyst who watched that race could have ZERO positive things to say about it for a horse of his stature to peform like that...go back and watch the race.....Solis wrapped up on him early in the stretch and this multiple Grade 1 winner could offer ZERO fight at any point in the stretch in a LISTED stakes event.....he eye-balled Cindago - who is only a maiden winner off a layoff longer than Brother Derek's - and Cindago absolutely broke his heart fair and square...a maiden off a layoff did!!!....I, for one, expect more from a multiple Grade 1 winner who was a highly-regarded as he was earlier this year when being the Derby favorite....

Just my opinion....

[Danzig]

i think barbaro got a lot of attention, as did his trainer for the airplane story. and the fact he had not one, but two undefeated colts heading into the derby. barbaro also got attention because of the five week layoff.

bro derek may have been the #1 story for west coast horses, and of course he would get more press also because of giacomo, as well as his 'human interest' story with his trainer being in a wheelchair.

but i really think that if he had gotten so much more press altogether, that he'd have been the fave, not sweetnorthernsaint.

a lot of horses fail first time off a layoff. remains to be seen if that's the new bro derek, or if that race is a toss.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i think barbaro got a lot of attention, as did his trainer for the airplane story. and the fact he had not one, but two undefeated colts heading into the derby. barbaro also got attention because of the five week layoff.

bro derek may have been the #1 story for west coast horses, and of course he would get more press also because of giacomo, as well as his 'human interest' story with his trainer being in a wheelchair.

but i really think that if he had gotten so much more press altogether, that he'd have been the fave, not sweetnorthernsaint.

a lot of horses fail first time off a layoff. remains to be seen if that's the new bro derek, or if that race is a toss.

Many analysts hated the fact that Barbaro had a hard time putting away Sharp Humor in the Florida Derby...say what you will and I'm not saying I agree with that assessment, but I really don't think it was the layoff thing as much as it was the fact that many just thought he was a turf horse and Brother Derek was winning far more comfortably on the West coast - albeit he wasn't defeating anything that was worth much.....

Trust me from being around CD for the Derby, Brother Derek was the feature horse for the media and it wasn't even really close....yes, NBC clung to the plane stort because that is what NBC does...remember, that audience is not a core audience...those are one-time a year fans watching teh Derby and they want human-interest stories......Hendricks was another human-interest story, but Brother Derek still got all of the "Industry trades" attention....

Sweetnorthernsaint was the fave based on his works at CD, his post draw, and his wise-guy buzz about running fast in the illinois Derby and all other preps by accounts of all speed figure sheets.....and he was...if you go back and look, Sweetnorthernsaint was the fastest horse on all sheets..Thoroughgraph, Rags, Beyers...all of them he was right up there with the fastest numbers and best patterns....Plus, he showed that he coulkd carry his game all around the country....

Many very smart people who work for CD and have been oriernted with studying the Derby and been involved in it for YEARS agree that Brother Derek's draw probably cose him to being the favorite or close to the favorite..

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Many very smart people who work for CD and have been oriernted with studying the Derby and been involved in it for YEARS agree that Brother Derek's draw probably cose him to being the favorite or close to the favorite..

Well thank heaven for the analysts and smart people at at CD who have studied the derby for years. Without them we wouldn't have been able to guess that with a better draw BD would have attracted more win money.

What next will they discover? Wait let me guess, If a horse runs well off the rail they lose ground?

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Well thank heaven for the analysts and smart people at at CD who have studied the derby for years. Without them we wouldn't have been able to guess that with a better draw BD would have attracted more win money.

What next will they discover? Wait let me guess, If a horse runs well off the rail they lose ground?

Nice sarcasm, Jim....But seriously, I was like you whe I first showed up at CD before Derby 2005 ad I was truly amazedat the different sciences in place...say what you will about the corporation ad I have some things I certainly don't like about them, but they do have some very sharp people in certain places with loads of experience with making money out of the Derby niche.....Remember, this race is a dynamic of its own...it is no other race with advanced wagering, 20 horses, etc.....they know through extensive research how that product is affected ad one predictio that was right on key was that Brother derek would be a lot higher odds than normally anticipated with his outside post....and that is at a very elementary level...

I think you'd be surprised....Remember, we're not talking about Magna or NYRA here, we're talking about a corporation in this industry that actualy knows how to make money and run a profitable business in this industry - which is a rarity with the defficient businesses in our game...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

..never liked this horse or his hype...he has never beat any good horses....Baffert loved Bob and John today but he hung like a rat...Cindago living up to his early reputation as being a nice horse....

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

In that case, do believe that Bellamy Road was the seond best 3-year-old in the last 30 years next to Secretariat because of his one good race in the Wood that may have been the best 3-year-old performance since Secrartariat's Belmont score?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

In that case, do believe that Bellamy Road was the seond best 3-year-old in the last 30 years next to Secretariat because of his one good race in the Wood that may have been the best 3-year-old performance since Secrartariat's Belmont score?

I think Bellamy Road was a great horse. It's too bad that we'll never know exactly how good he was. They totally mismanged him and now the horse will never run again.

I don't think you can call him the second best 3 year in 30 years, because he only ran one great race(The Wood Memorial). That's really not enough to call him an all-time great. He also ran a very good race in the Travers under adverse conditions.

Nowadays, you can't really expect a horse to run 15 great races. They usually retire pretty quickly. I think Ghostzapper was great even though he only ran about 10 times.

Anyway, BM certainly did not accomplish enough to call him an all-time great.

[letswastemoney]

The El Cajon was the easiest one to handicap for me on the whole card.

Brother Derek and Bob and John were both coming off grueling Triple Crown efforts. They had every reason to look suspect on their first start back.

Cindago earned a 98 beyer as a 2 year old showing he had talent. He had bullets on his worktab. By placing him in this race, his connections seemed very confident in his ability to me. He was rested and ready to fire.

When I looked at the 2/5 odds on BD I thought that was insane! Who would waste money at 2/5? You'd barely get anything back if he did win anyway.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think Bellamy Road was a great horse. It's too bad that we'll never know exactly how good he was. They totally mismanged him and now the horse will never run again.

I don't think you can call him the second best 3 year in 30 years, because he only ran one great race(The Wood Memorial). That's really not enough to call him an all-time great. He also ran a very good race in the Travers under adverse conditions.

Nowadays, you can't really expect a horse to run 15 great races. They usually retire pretty quickly. I think Ghostzapper was great even though he only ran about 10 times.

Anyway, BM certainly did not accomplish enough to call him an all-time great.

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?