Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

Zenyatta has absolutely no case for HOY. None.
Sorry boys and girls. Superior in her division.......of course.

Let's see if the voters make the same stupid mistake, they made, when Azeri won it.

IMHO Zenyatta is a much better filly then Azeri. Azeri was a running machine but Zenyatta is a straight up freak who I think can get better.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

See, by far the best sprinter on accomplishment has been Street Boss, and he ran solid this past weekend, yet it did not even cross your eastern biased mind.

No, I was pointing out that there was no East Coast horse that could realistically be considered. By inference, it pretty much had to be a West Coast based horse. Though, Indian Blessing will be one of the three finalists I assume.

Which West Coast based horse won the most Grade 1s sprinting. You might want to think about this one.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No, I was pointing out that there was no East Coast horse that could realistically be considered. By inference, it pretty much had to be a West Coast based horse. Though, Indian Blessing will be one of the three finalists I assume.

Which West Coast based horse won the most Grade 1s sprinting. You might want to think about this one.

Intagaroo and you know I pointed it out elsewhere that she won the west, midwest, and east coasts grade 1 sprint events, something to my knowledge never has happened before.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Intagaroo and you know I pointed it out elsewhere that she won the west, midwest, and east coasts grade 1 sprint events, something to my knowledge never has happened before.

I missed that post....but yes.

Of course, she shouldn't be considered, but it is interesting.

I wonder which three of Midnight Lute, Street Boss, Indian Blessing and Benny the Bull will be the finalists.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I missed that post....but yes.

Of course, she shouldn't be considered, but it is interesting.

I wonder which three of Midnight Lute, Street Boss, Indian Blessing and Benny the Bull will be the finalists.

benny the bull, midnight lute and street boss in my opinion.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I missed that post....but yes.

Of course, she shouldn't be considered, but it is interesting.

I wonder which three of Midnight Lute, Street Boss, Indian Blessing and Benny the Bull will be the finalists.

I know which one I dont want.

BTB win in Dubai technically is not counted right?

Midnight Lute won the sprint but finsihed 7th the other run, I dont like rewarding a 2 race season with an Eclipse, though he is the best horse by a distance of the group.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I missed that post....but yes.

Of course, she shouldn't be considered, but it is interesting.

I wonder which three of Midnight Lute, Street Boss, Indian Blessing and Benny the Bull will be the finalists.

I thought there were two seperate awards for males and females. I don't know who gets it for males but I'd probably vote for Midnight Lute. For the females, even though I think Indian Blessing is the better one, I'd vote for Intangaroo. I don't see how Intangaroo's record doesn't trump Indian Blessing's. Indian Blessing won two grade one's sprinting and both were against 3yo fillies. She beat open company once, in a grade two. None of the horses that completed the exactas and tris in those three races have done anything of note, save for maybe one or two grade three wins. Meanwhile, Intangaroo won three open company grade one races and two of them, the Humana Distaff and the Ballerina were on real dirt. In those races, she beat Baroness Thatcher, Hystericalady, Miraculous Miss, and Sugar Swirl, all graded stakes winners and gave them all weight while doing it. Based on record, it's really not even close.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Kotoshaan was horse of the year, I highly doubt he was a better horse then Bertrando or Best Pal, but they ran in separate divisions and their accomplishments are weighted separately.

For reals? You really think that Kotoshaan wasn't a better horse than those two?

I don't know how to respond to that.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I know which one I dont want.

BTB win in Dubai technically is not counted right?

Midnight Lute won the sprint but finsihed 7th the other run, I dont like rewarding a 2 race season with an Eclipse, though he is the best horse by a distance of the group.

If the Dubai World Cup counts for Curlin, why wouldn't a sprint race in Dubai count for BTB?? That would be a gross double standard.

[Indian Charlie]

Champion filly sprinter has to be IB or Ventura. Intangaroo lost too many times, and was soundly beaten in the BC.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not that I think she deserves it based on overall accomplishments, but why not Ventura for filly sprinter, if there is such a thing? She won a grade 2 at Keeneland and crushed both Indian Blessing and Intangaroo. If turf horses can come here and win a race and get an eclipse, why not her?

You'd get no argument from me accept that I don't want to reward a filly who's only two sprint wins came on synthetics when there are two deserving candidates with dirt wins.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dubai doesnt count. speed figures are now part of the process? You just used AP Arrow in a positive way. I give up. Andy is right. If this qualifies as a good thing than it simply isnt worth trying.

Ok so let me get this straight. The Dubai World Cup is for all intents and purposes, an American race. But you say it doesn't count. They have given the championships to numerous European horses that have come over and run once and won because their European records supported it but when one of ours runs overseas, it doesn't count? How fair is it that Singspiel has a championship without winning a single race in the United States but won anyway because his foreign record supported it but Curlin's race in Dubai doesn't count. If Curlin's Dubai race doesn't count, then the accomplishments overseas of no other horses count and some Eclipse awards need to be rescinded. Like I've said before, I don't disagree with anyone that says that the criteria of the awards should be changed to say that a horse has to start at least 4-5 times here and that his foreign record isn't to be considered. Won't disagree at all. But until they make that change, under the present criteria and with precedent clearly having been set over and over again, Dubai absolutely does count.

[zippyneedsawin]

Curlin will be HOY. Zenyatta had a teriffic campaign, but needed to run and win in the BCC to get the top honor, IMO. Personally, I'd put Big Brown over Zenyatta in the voting too.
When Azeri won HOY, it was mainly because there wasn't a top older male or 3yo alternative. (Volponi's BCC finalized that) The Champion older male in 2002 was Left Bank.. and Champion male 3yo was War Emblem, neither ended the year as worthy of HOY. Azeri deserved the title, but in a sense, won by default.
In 2008, Curlin and Big Brown are both worthy.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The idea is basically for the best dirt router in the country. Usually, that's an older male horse. The door gets opened up to others when there is no clear outstanding older dirt male. That was the case when Azeri won it and when Lady's Secret won it. Same as when Kotashaan won it. There usually has to be a strong resume compiled throughout the year but that's not a requirement. As I've mentioned before, Arazi was one of the three HOY finalists in 1991 and that was after winning only the BC Juvenile during his year. This year, Curlin has compiled a good enough resume to win it. It's not the strongest ever presented but it is good enough. I don't think Zenyatta has come close to accomplishing the most in the sport this year. The ironic thing is that there's no doubt in my mind that she's actually better than Curlin this year.

.

??? Wasnt Lady's Secret beating up on the boys all year long in '86

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by kgar311

??? Wasnt Lady's Secret beating up on the boys all year long in '86

She won one race in 4 tries against males in '86: The Whitney over Ends Well and Fuzzy... She was 2nd in the Woodward to Precisionist (by 5L); 3rd in the Iselin to Roo Art and Precisionist (3.5L) and 3rd in the Met Mile to Garthorn and Love That Mac (1.25L).

[blackthroatedwind]

Don't start knocking Fuzzy.

Turkoman was fourth in that Met Mile.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Kasept

She won one race in 4 tries against males in '86: The Whitney over Ends Well and Fuzzy... She was 2nd in the Woodward to Precisionist (by 5L); 3rd in the Iselin to Roo Art and Precisionist (3.5L) and 3rd in the Met Mile to Garthorn and Love That Mac (1.25L).

I think she finished ahead of Personal Flag in the Woodward.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by kgar311

I think she finished ahead of Personal Flag in the Woodward.

He wasn't exactly a superstar ( and he was one of my personal favorites ). What were his big wins....the Queen's County and a three horse blanket finish in the Widener?

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He wasn't exactly a superstar ( and he was one of my personal favorites ). What were his big wins....the Queen's County and a three horse blanket finish in the Widener?

Hey dont knock the Queens County, didnt Federal Funds win that race.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

??? Wasnt Lady's Secret beating up on the boys all year long in '86

Dance Smartly not only beat the boys in her undefeated season but she also won the triple crown, granted it was in Canada.

Probably the best horse she beat that year was Fly So Free who is still probably better than anything Zenyatta faced this year. If she couldn't win HOY that year where Black Tie Affair was the top Hdcp horse then I would have to think the precedent has been set that a filly/mare shouldn't unless by default as Azeri did.