Trying To Make Money On Big Brown Today... - Page 4

Gander · #61 08-05-2008, 10:23 AM

Did you guys watch the Jim Dandy? I dont see those horses as being a lot better than the horses Big Brown beat in the Haskell. I would maybe give them a slight edge, but shouldnt Pyro have won the Jim Dandy if he was half as good as the hyped that has surrounded him all year?
I'm not sold on Harlem Rocker being this super horse but he wont have to be to win this.

Gander · #62 08-05-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not that it's a bunch of cows, so much as it is that big brown didn't finish two races back, and in this race was all out to beat a horse who is much less than those heading for the travers. had he not struggled on sunday, i think they would have considered the travers, and then train up to the bcc. i really think iavarone would have liked to showcase his colt at saratoga, but doesn't feel a lot of confidence based on how big brown ran on sunday.

His owners never considered the Travers. It was Dutrow who so badly wanted to run in the Travers and either way, its a moot point now.
I'm glad hes not coming. The hype would be annoying and obnoxious.

smuthg · #63 08-05-2008, 10:54 AM

How can Dutrow in his right mind even think of comparing Big Brown to Curlin...

I must have missed the quote "Curlin's never been out of the money, and Big Brown ran DFL in the biggest race of his life..."

http://www.drf.com/news/article/97017.html

Gander · #64 08-05-2008, 11:24 AM

I dont think its fair to say Big Brown is or isnt a great horse based on 1 bad day. And its not inconceivable to think he could have finished 3rd or 4th in the Belmont had Desormeaux not pulled him up.
Big Brown won 2 legs of the Triple Crown, and Curlin only 1. At least he didnt let a girl beat him. Big Brown would have walloped that field Curlin beat in Dubai, I dont think thats arguable.
Both very accomplished horsies. They'll never meet so any argument is moot and can never be proved. Also both owned by people I know I wouldnt trust with $5.

Gander · #65 08-05-2008, 11:49 AM

You dont think he could have beat that World Cup field? Can you even name another horse in the race? Trolling?

stonegossard · #66 08-05-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I know you're just trolling, but this is pretty amusing. Big Brown would have won in Dubai? I laughed, a lot.

Yeah....and that Big Brown didnt get beat by an icky girl. Most likely Curlin lost because he didnt want to run by her and get kooties.

Gander · #67 08-05-2008, 12:13 PM

Curlin is a great horse. In today's world hes a super horse. Not denying his ability but lets not pretend he hasnt lost races and had his fair share of days when he didnt fire his best shots.
I think hes better than Big Brown but I wouldnt laugh and ridicule someone who thought otherwise. I just dont think Curlin has done nearly enough to make the argument a stupid one.

ArlJim78 · #68 08-05-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

I dont think its fair to say Big Brown is or isnt a great horse based on 1 bad day.

It isnt that he had one bad day, its that his wins were nothing you would file under the category of great. Big Brown has done nothing that could be called great, in any of his races.

ArlJim78 · #69 08-05-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

Curlin is a great horse. In today's world hes a super horse. Not denying his ability but lets not pretend he hasnt lost races and had his fair share of days when he didnt fire his best shots.
I think hes better than Big Brown but I wouldnt laugh and ridicule someone who thought otherwise. I just dont think Curlin has done nearly enough to make the argument a stupid one.

you should, those two horses are on distinctly different levels. who is the best horse Big Brown defeated? Macho Again? Coal Play? there is no comparision. I don't know how an informed person can look at the company lines, speed figures, consistency of racing class etc, and come to a different opinion.

Gander · #70 08-05-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It isnt that he had one bad day, its that his wins were nothing you would file under the category of great. Big Brown has done nothing that could be called great, in any of his races.

You have to be basing this solely on his competition, which I agree 100% sucks. But its not his fault they cant breed good 3 year olds anymore. His KY Derby win was fantastic imo. His Preakness a laugher, equally as impressive.

Again, I am not a fan of his nor his owners/trainer, and I do agree that Curlin is better. But to say he hasnt done anything great? By today's standards?
I think hes a really good horse and I wish he had more likeable connections.

ArlJim78 · #71 08-05-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

You have to be basing this solely on his competition, which I agree 100% sucks. But its not his fault they cant breed good 3 year olds anymore. His KY Derby win was fantastic imo. His Preakness a laugher, equally as impressive.

Again, I am not a fan of his nor his owners/trainer, and I do agree that Curlin is better. But to say he hasnt done anything great? By today's standards?
I think hes a really good horse and I wish he had more likeable connections.

I don't think you should define greatness downward to suit the times, other wise it has no meaning. by historical standards Big Brown is not great imo.

ateamstupid · #72 08-05-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

Curlin is a great horse. In today's world hes a super horse. Not denying his ability but lets not pretend he hasnt lost races and had his fair share of days when he didnt fire his best shots.
I think hes better than Big Brown but I wouldnt laugh and ridicule someone who thought otherwise. I just dont think Curlin has done nearly enough to make the argument a stupid one.

I don't remember Curlin having any 'bad days', which is pretty damn remarkable considering the schedule that he had last year. He never had any chance in the Haskell, because it was impossible to close any ground on that track.

If Big Brown raced the schedule that Curlin did at three, he wouldve collapsed in the Belmont even earlier than he did and never been heard from again.

I agree that Curlin's legend is being inflated a bit because of the lack of good handicap horses recently, but he's better than Big Brown. It's not even close.

Gander · #73 08-05-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

you should, those two horses are on distinctly different levels. who is the best horse Big Brown defeated? Macho Again? Coal Play? there is no comparision. I don't know how an informed person can look at the company lines, speed figures, consistency of racing class etc, and come to a different opinion.

Good question. Who is the best horse Big Brown defeated? Before seeing the Jim Dandy I would have said Pyro. But now I am not too sure. I'd have to give that to Macho Again.

Now what about Curlin? Street Sense or Lawyer Ron? What would you say? I would say Lawyer Ron.

Lawyer Ron would blast Macho Again, so I guess you are right.

SentToStud · #74 08-05-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

you should, those two horses are on distinctly different levels. who is the best horse Big Brown defeated? Macho Again? Coal Play? there is no comparision. I don't know how an informed person can look at the company lines, speed figures, consistency of racing class etc, and come to a different opinion.

Guess we will see if he runs a couple more times but figure me for one to laugh at too. He romped out of the 12 post at Gulf and rolled out of the 20 post in Louisville. I don't disagree that he hasn't beaten real god ones and he did clunk at the Belmont. But he looked dead beaten at the 1/4 pole last weekend and still got it done. It'll be interesting to see how he does vs older.

SniperSB23 · #75 08-05-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

Good question. Who is the best horse Big Brown defeated?

Eight Belles

Gander · #76 08-05-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't remember Curlin having any 'bad days', which is pretty damn remarkable considering the schedule that he had last year. He never had any chance in the Haskell, because it was impossible to close any ground on that track.

If Big Brown raced the schedule that Curlin did at three, he wouldve collapsed in the Belmont even earlier than he did and never been heard from again.

I agree that Curlin's legend is being inflated a bit because of the lack of good handicap horses recently, but he's better than Big Brown. It's not even close.

I didnt say bad days, I just said days where he didnt run his best. Sure, Big Brown's Belmont was way worse than any race Curlin ever ran, true dat. I know Curlin had a very tough trip in the KY Derby, and for him to finish 3rd was pretty darn good. Didnt he have a perfect trip in the Belmont though, and still lost?

Antitrust32 · #77 08-05-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It isnt that he had one bad day, its that his wins were nothing you would file under the category of great. Big Brown has done nothing that could be called great, in any of his races.

I thought his FL Derby win from post 12 and Kentucky Derby win from post 20 were pretty great.

No horse has won a route from post 12 at Gulfstream in how many years and BB did it in the biggest race at the track? Let alone the Kentucky Derby from the IMPOSSIBLE post. I think that is a great accomplishment.

ateamstupid · #78 08-05-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

I didnt say bad days, I just said days where he didnt run his best. Sure, Big Brown's Belmont was way worse than any race Curlin ever ran, true dat. I know Curlin had a very tough trip in the KY Derby, and for him to finish 3rd was pretty darn good. Didnt he have a perfect trip in the Belmont though, and still lost?

He got beaten a neck by a horse that's way better than anybody Big Brown has faced. Plus, consider that it was his sixth start since February, three weeks after running his eyeballs out to beat Street Sense in the Preakness. Do you think Big Brown would've done better in that situation?

hoovesupsideyourhead · #79 08-05-2008, 01:01 PM

what if hard spun would have stayed around..would curlin look so good now..

hockey2315 · #80 08-05-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't remember Curlin having any 'bad days', which is pretty damn remarkable considering the schedule that he had last year. He never had any chance in the Haskell, because it was impossible to close any ground on that track.

If Big Brown raced the schedule that Curlin did at three, he wouldve collapsed in the Belmont even earlier than he did and never been heard from again.

I agree that Curlin's legend is being inflated a bit because of the lack of good handicap horses recently, but he's better than Big Brown. It's not even close.

I agree with everything you're saying except for this - for the simple fact that Curlin and Any Given Saturday had very similar trips. Curlin was only a length or two behind AGS for most of the race and the two of them were right next to each other at the top of the stretch. If anything Albarado may have moved too soon on Curlin, but I think it's fair to say that Curlin had a bit of an off day in the Haskell - even if it was still an ok performance.

The things that Dutrow said about Curlin are really ridiculous and absurd - you'd think that he would be smart enough to keep his mouth shut this time. I especially enjoyed "Curlin got beat by a filly, we didn't." Well, Dick, you got beat by the whole field in that same race the next year - including a maiden. And "Our horse in undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't." Aside from the fact that he wasn't "your" horse when he won his ONE start on grass, that was in a MSW vs. nobody while Curlin's was in a Grade 1 vs. two BC winners.