Arlignton Poly

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Bid

2 more breakdowns friday. Looks like its time for a reality check.

It is actually one breakdown. The Tomillo horse broke down and the other horse, the 7 actually tried to jump that horse.

I wouldn't look too much into Tomillo's breakdown. It is the owner of Lord of the Game, who took all the cash that horse won them and got 10k claimers(others people garbage) and now they run all of them for 4k. Almost all of Tomillo's horses are sore and beaten down, IMO.

But yeah, they are still going to break down on this stuff, the breakdown from the other day that injured Penalba was much worse from a sight perspective

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by The Bid

2 more breakdowns friday. Looks like its time for a reality check.

A reality check on the track, not the surface. Stop blaming the surface when it has nothing to do with it!

You don't like Poly, you have expressed that, but judging what people have been saying about your posts you have been making up many of these "break downs".

From what i have heard, many of the horses that have "broken down" are horses that looked to be in bad condition anyway, so you may want to blame some trainers and the track rather than the brilliant surface.

If Arlington aren't managing it properly, it becomes their fualt. Nothing else. Or can't you understand that?

[Danzig]

i think we should have a debate between the bid and sumitas on the issue of polytrack.
ought to be entertaining.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think we should have a debate between the bid and sumitas on the issue of polytrack.
ought to be entertaining.

There is no debate needed, The Bid has tunnel vision and cannot, for some reason, accept change.

Why would the near exact same surface be so good over here but yet so bad over there? I will tell you why. Because our tracks that have Poly can maintain and mamnge it properly, making it one of the best artificial surfaces a horse can race on.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

There is no debate needed, The Bid has tunnel vision and cannot, for some reason, accept change.

Why would the near exact same surface be so good over here but yet so bad over there? I will tell you why. Because our tracks that have Poly can maintain and mamnge it properly, making it one of the best artificial surfaces a horse can race on.

I don't think Bid hates poly, I think he hates what excuses tracks used for getting the surface, when they could have done some things differently to prevent some of these injuries. Just my observation

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Scav

I don't think Bid hates poly, I think he hates what excuses tracks used for getting the surface, when they could have done some things differently to prevent some of these injuries. Just my observation

All they need to do is 'prepare' the surface and i'm confident that most of these break downs will stop. It could be ofcourse that the horses that are breaking down are physically weak individuals anyway, we all know the amount of drugs they run on (something which i don't agree with).

I'm just fed up of hearing people slam the Poly for no reason, when it should be the track that is getting slammed for not preparing the surface correctly.

There is another course with Polytrack in Europe now. In Ireland to be specific. They had a trial race day there the other day before their first 'proper' race day next week. All of the trainers and jockeys reported it to be a beautiful and safe surface.

All three of our polytrack surfaces have had next to no problems, so i cannot see why it is having all of the problems over there, unless it isn't being prepared correctly. That surely is the only reason other than the theory of much weaker horses racing in America.

[Danzig]

the problems comes in when trainers think that the track is a magic pill that a horse in bad shape can run over with no ill affects.
and of course there are the tracks who installed it while wearing rose-colored glasses and now have to go back and read the manual! think about it, how many of us buy something, put it together, have parts left over (do they send extras? i'm sure they must BE extra pieces) realize there's a problem, and go back and read the instructions.
and then the lightbulb comes on.

no one said that the track would eliminate all breakdowns (after all how can it, when not all breakdowns are related to surface, but to issues with the horse itself?) but would be a safer alternative. i'm not so sure that the best poly is safer than the best dirt surface, but i'd imagine it's better than many of the dirt tracks that it's replacing.

most people are resistant to change-it's our nature. BUT, if the change is made, we have to hope the track does everything it can to get it right-but by the same token, a trainer needs to do HIS job right as well.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

All they need to do is 'prepare' the surface and i'm confident that most of these break downs will stop. It could be ofcourse that the horses that are breaking down are physically weak individuals anyway, we all know the amount of drugs they run on (something which i don't agree with).

I'm just fed up of hearing people slam the Poly for no reason, when it should be the track that is getting slammed for not preparing the surface correctly.

There is another course with Polytrack in Europe now. In Ireland to be specific. They had a trial race day there the other day before their first 'proper' race day next week. All of the trainers and jockeys reported it to be a beautiful and safe surface.

All three of our polytrack surfaces have had next to no problems, so i cannot see why it is having all of the problems over there, unless it isn't being prepared correctly. That surely is the only reason other than the theory of much weaker horses racing in America.

thus far del mar has no breakdowns on their track, only on the turf. of course not everyone is happy with how the surface is playing.
of course bid is located near turfway and arlington, so i doubt he cares much about del mar. i know turfway had many more problems last year than their first with the artificial, and arlington has some work to do. but i think arlington is ahead of where they were.

i'm just not totally sold that a good poly is better than a good dirt surface. unless of course you've got a turf track and hope to keep full fields when they come off due to weather.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Scav

But yeah, they are still going to break down on this stuff, the breakdown from the other day that injured Penalba was much worse from a sight perspective

Which one with Penalba?
With Arlington off TVG can't keep up with Arlington as much as I used to.

And agreed that the problems seem to be with lower level claimers, and as you said with horses that are claimed then dropped and run back.

Yeah, no matter what you do there are always going to be breakdowns whether it is the track, the horse, bad management by owners or trainers.
But I don't find Arlington as hard to figure out as Del Mar or Keeneland.

I miss Arlington on TV.....
BTW How are the jocks?

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Danzig

thus far del mar has no breakdowns on their track, only on the turf. of course not everyone is happy with how the surface is playing.
of course bid is located near turfway and arlington, so i doubt he cares much about del mar. i know turfway had many more problems last year than their first with the artificial, and arlington has some work to do. but i think arlington is ahead of where they were.

i'm just not totally sold that a good poly is better than a good dirt surface. unless of course you've got a turf track and hope to keep full fields when they come off due to weather.

Turfway had the problems because of freezing track temperatures, and the main reason for that is because they thought they only had to harrow it once and everything would be okay. Surely everyone knows that if something is kept on the move, it will not freeze up and 'ball' together.

Wolverhampton had problems with the freezing track in the winter, but they just about managed to get through it by harrowing it after EVERY race to kep the surface moving. However, they also found that heavy snow fall can find out the Poly. Really heavy snow will settle on the track and cause it to freeze under the layer of snow. There was nothing they could do about that.

From all the stats i have seen, Poly is a much safer surface than dirt, but that doesn't give a true reflection because, as you say there have been some great dirt surfaces and some truly awful ones. What i will say is that the dirt was often a very fast surface, and made fast because that's how the track wanted it. If that dirt surface becomes too fast there is very little cushion in it and that is no good for half a ton of horse.

The Poly can ride fast or slow, depending how the track preapre it, but however it rides, it will always have that much needed cushion to minimise bone concussion in the horse's limbs.

[The Bid]

It was two Scav

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...081707USA2.pdf

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...081707USA7.pdf

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Bid

It was two Scav

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...081707USA2.pdf

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...081707USA7.pdf

My fault. I didn't see that 7th race

[Danzig]

http://horseracing.sportsline.com/cb...rticleId=21118


found that article by crist...originally was in drf, and then sportsline ran it.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

I'm just fed up of hearing people slam the Poly for no reason, when it should be the track that is getting slammed for not preparing the surface correctly.

Who rips it for no reason? There's plenty of reason to rip it; the first being that it produces boring, unwatchable races. I've got news for you Europeans; we Americans don't like watching your style of racing. Sure, Europe has the best grass horses nowadays, but watching a field of horses gallop/crawl for 8 furlongs only to start trying for the final 2 furlongs is a joke. I think Stephen Crist addressed the subject quite well in his Sunday editorial in the DRF.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by JJP

Who rips it for no reason? There's plenty of reason to rip it; the first being that it produces boring, unwatchable races. I've got news for you Europeans; we Americans don't like watching your style of racing. Sure, Europe has the best grass horses nowadays, but watching a field of horses gallop/crawl for 8 furlongs only to start trying for the final 2 furlongs is a joke. I think Stephen Crist addressed the subject quite well in his Sunday editorial in the DRF.

And if the tracks prepared the poly correctly, it could act just like dirt and make sure there is a true end to end gallop. They're obviously not doing that, though.

We prefer tactical racing, the jocks use their brains (well, most of them) rather than just say "well, lets have a pac duell with four other horses, get posted five ride round the bends and not have a chance of winning".

Just because you now have what once was just a european surface, it doesn't mean the races have to run like european races. As i said, if Arlington and the other tracks were to prepare it to ride like a dirt surface (but safer), which can be done...... the problem that you're having would be solved.

[JJP]

We'll see if they can get it right. Like Crist said, we have more extreme weather here and I don't think many who rushed to judgement took that into account. I won't rip Turfway Park because they have to race thru brutal conditions and from what I've seen, their racing has been more like normal dirt racing than the other synthetic tracks. And they were losing race dates. Arlington? I hated to see my local track get it but I knew it was going to happen because of all the bad publicity last year. The Chicago Tribune, a paper who basically eliminated horse racing coverage and charts ten years ago, was on a witch hunt to make AP look bad. Was it the surface? Maybe, but I think some trainers were definitely to blame for some of the breakdowns we saw last year (which seem to be escalating recently).
But California? This was just plain wrong for the CHRB to mandate synthetic surfaces on all the tracks. They don't have weather issues out there. If this was a reaction to breakdowns at Dmr last year, then fine, just put it there but don't penalize the other tracks and fans. And Keeneland? That track has become a laughingstock. The Poly propagandists love to point at the Sinister Minister race as being fraudulent but I would argue that the most fraudulent Grade 1 on dirt I've ever seen was the Blue Grass this year.....and I even nailed the exacta so it wasn't sour grapes.
A little bit of synthetic is fine; a good alternative for winter tracks like Turfway....I could see Aqueduct replacing the inner dirt with it and it probably would make sense. But to see tracks like Keeneland and Santa Anita go to it is just wrong. I hope to God Saratoga and CD never go to it because that will be the end of American style racing as we know it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by JJP

We'll see if they can get it right. Like Crist said, we have more extreme weather here and I don't think many who rushed to judgement took that into account. I won't rip Turfway Park because they have to race thru brutal conditions and from what I've seen, their racing has been more like normal dirt racing than the other synthetic tracks. And they were losing race dates. Arlington? I hated to see my local track get it but I knew it was going to happen because of all the bad publicity last year. The Chicago Tribune, a paper who basically eliminated horse racing coverage and charts ten years ago, was on a witch hunt to make AP look bad. Was it the surface? Maybe, but I think some trainers were definitely to blame for some of the breakdowns we saw last year (which seem to be escalating recently).
But California? This was just plain wrong for the CHRB to mandate synthetic surfaces on all the tracks. They don't have weather issues out there. If this was a reaction to breakdowns at Dmr last year, then fine, just put it there but don't penalize the other tracks and fans. And Keeneland? That track has become a laughingstock. The Poly propagandists love to point at the Sinister Minister race as being fraudulent but I would argue that the most fraudulent Grade 1 on dirt I've ever seen was the Blue Grass this year.....and I even nailed the exacta so it wasn't sour grapes.
A little bit of synthetic is fine; a good alternative for winter tracks like Turfway....I could see Aqueduct replacing the inner dirt with it and it probably would make sense. But to see tracks like Keeneland and Santa Anita go to it is just wrong. I hope to God Saratoga and CD never go to it because that will be the end of American style racing as we know it.

i'm thinking the type of poly selected may be a big part of the equation. i believe hollywood was praised as being almost no different from a dirt surface-having gone with Cushion Track. arlington has been pretty kind to all types of horses, as the #'s have been showing. seems turfway is the one who had the worst of it, and of course right now del mar (poly, not cushion)is showing a bias.
golden gate is going with Tapeta.

i still think these tracks should have stayed with dirt, that had they invested in revamping their dirt track, they'd have been fine. it's not like you can lay down a dirt surface and it will last forever. and if they had the mentality that it WOULD last forever, they may have the same style of thinking that poly is maintenance free, rather than taking care of it correctly.

but you may as well get used to it, it's not like those tracks are going to lay out 9 million, and then pull it right back up again. but perhaps in future tracks might consider going with cushion like at hollywood--seems some of the confusion is based on calling all these artificial surfaces poly track, when that is only one type....kind of like calling all tissue brands a kleenex!

[cmorioles]

JJP hit the nail on the head. Why in the world would Southern California, with some of the best weather in the world, need an all weather surface? The whole thing is becoming a joke, much like most of the races on the stuff.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

JJP hit the nail on the head. Why in the world would Southern California, with some of the best weather in the world, need an all weather surface? The whole thing is becoming a joke, much like most of the races on the stuff.

west coast tracks were notoriously tough on horses--the surfaces were too hard. whether it was the location, weather, or what....take note of how many less euros shipped to the bc when it was in cali. i remember the months leading up to the last time it was held out west. everyone was complaining, they didn't want to ship out there and compete on that track. remember that mineshaft retired rather than go out there? no one liked the surfaces out there.
mandella won half the card that day--he had a homefield advantage.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

seems some of the confusion is based on calling all these artificial surfaces poly track, when that is only one type....kind of like calling all tissue brands a kleenex!

While obviously different, they are still pretty similar to each other. Cushion track behaves a lot closer to polytrack than it does to dirt. It isn't much different than calling dirt at Santa Anita and Mountaineer both dirt. They are quite different even to the naked eye. Still, dirt pretty much plays the same all over, with most differences due to course layout.

The problem I have with the fake stuff is the constant tinkering not only from day to day, but even between races. It is very tough for a bettor to handicap the night before, because you have absolutely no idea what to expect.