Most Underrated of 2006

[Gander]

You still owe me $700 from that night. Now that you are working a 2nd job I expect payment in full by post time of the Malibu.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Comically slow? The pace was FASTER than average for optional claimers, and he sat behind two hopelessly overmatched duelers until the 1/2 mile pole.

A Maiden Claiming race, an hour earlier, featured FASTER fractions than that race....and the maiden claimer who set those fractions....he didn't falter, he drew away.

You are seriously nuts if you just look at naked raw fractions...not only do tracks change speed from day-to-day...but stuff like wind also plays a role in fractions.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Gander

You still owe me $700 from that night. Now that you are working a 2nd job I expect payment in full by post time of the Malibu.

I wasnt that drunk....

[Gander]

Okay, I will settle for a pound of coffee then.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

A Maiden Claiming race, an hour earlier, featured FASTER fractions than that race....and the maiden claimer who set those fractions....he didn't falter, he drew away.

You are seriously nuts if you just look at naked raw fractions...not only do tracks change speed from day-to-day...but stuff like wind also plays a role in fractions.

last i checked, 45.58 and 70.59 is NOT faster than 45.50 and 69.38. Par to the half mile for alw runners at sar at 7f is 45.75, and the track pace was 2 lengths slow that day.

there's a reason the mcl drew off... the rest of the field was beyond terrible.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Gander

Okay, I will settle for a pound of coffee then.

ok...but only if you agree to remove that picture of me as your avatar

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

last i checked, 45.58 and 70.59 is NOT faster than 45.50 and 69.38. Par to the half mile for alw runners at sar at 7f is 45.75, and the track pace was 2 lengths slow that day.

there's a reason the mcl drew off... the rest of the field was beyond terrible.

The opening quarter was faster...and the 2nd faction was identical. Why are you posting six furlong times? Discreet Cat was already well in front after six furlongs.

The early fractions are considered first and 2nd quarter....not the six furlong call of a seven fulrong race.

The 2nd and 3rd place finishers behind the MCL winner both won their next start...the MCL winner was eased in his next start.

Nice try though.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The opening quarter was faster...and the 2nd faction was identical. Why are you posting six furlong times? Discreet Cat was already well in front after six furlongs.

The early fractions are considered first and 2nd quarter....not the six furlong call of a seven fulrong race.

The 2nd and 3rd place finishers behind the MCL winner both won their next start...the MCL winner was eased in his next start.

Nice try though.

I give up. Discreet Cat is the greatest thing since sliced bread because he beat some allowance bums with a moderately slow pace. Whatever.

[Gander]

Lets not forget the time between races for Discreet Cat. Geez, imagine how much better Skip Away and Cigar would have been if they were treated like a glass horse too.

I dont blame anybody for hyping up this horse though, we are in desperate need of a superstar in this sport. This decade has provided very few.

The 90's spoiled us with real horses that ran in races with real competition.

[cmorioles]

Enough of this silly talk about DC's tough trips. Trips don't matter when you face horses that can't possibly beat you under any circumstances.

I think now, Bernardini is probably underrated. Guess what? Great horses lose races sometimes. Very few retire undefeated. This horse most likely would have gone on to greatness if given the chance, including beating Discreet Cat at anything 1 1/8 miles and beyond. Unfortunately, as with all talented horses in this game, we'll never know how great he could have been.

Losing the BC Classic by about a length as a 3yo to a very good horse is pretty impressive if you think about it.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Yeah, he was definitely underrated until then but after running 3rd there and then toying with the Clark field I feel like people think somehow the Clark means he is the best returning horse next year. I think he is among the best but that distinction goes to Invasor with Premium Tap and Discreet Cat battling it out for the second spot. And yes, I played the superfecta with Invasor and Bernardini in the top two spots and four horses (including Giacomo) in the bottom two spots and foolishly left Premium Tap out since I convinced myself he'd get too much dirt kicked in his face to be effective. Not my best moment.

That's because you didn't listen to me on Premium Tap (but I can't talk for putting only Bernie on top w/ Invasor & PT )

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to be disagreeable but since when are Invasor, McLaughin,Gorella, Prado, and the Whitney underrated?

I think the odds on Invasor speak that he was under-rated. The big boys were believed to be Lava Man & Bernardini, and DrugS explaination of the horses behind Invasor & Sun King explain why I think the race was under-rated, which may have affected what people thought of on Invasor. (that and the Suburban field wasn't all that hot either)

Maybe I need a better word for McLaughlin, Gorella & Prado...over-looked perhaps? Guess we'll wait to see on Eclipse day.

[Gander]

Gorella is not underrated. Neither is Fernando Jara. You put any number of jockeys on Invasor and Jazil and they will win the same amount of races. Hes a good rider but so are many others.

The most over talked about trip of all time is the one she had in last year's BC Mile where she was shut off and couldnt get past Artie Schiller.

True, it has validity but she lost and you cant say for sure she would have been the winner with a clean trip. Others in that race had less than ideal trips too.

She was all out to beat Karen's Caper with a perfect trip in the race before the BC. At Arlington this summer she was pretty amazing winning the Beverly D but if you watch Film Maker's trip that day. Brutal and not just in one spot.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think the odds on Invasor speak that he was under-rated. The big boys were believed to be Lava Man & Bernardini, and DrugS explaination of the horses behind Invasor & Sun King explain why I think the race was under-rated, which may have affected what people thought of on Invasor. (that and the Suburban field wasn't all that hot either)

Maybe I need a better word for McLaughlin, Gorella & Prado...over-looked perhaps? Guess we'll wait to see on Eclipse day.

Don't forget that Invasor was a bit higher in price than he might have otherwise been as a result of getting sick and missing the Jockey Club Gold Cup. Recall that he was coming into the race off a 3-month layoff which was *not* by design. He was coming off a recent illness, missed his prep race, and missed a few days of training. All of those factors raised questions about if he'd be able to deliver a peak performance and definitely contributed to his being the forgotten horse.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Gander

Go easy on Bernardini. What exactly has he done wrong? He ran a very good
2nd to Invasor (a very good horse in his own right) in the BC Classic.
People act like he ran as bad as Lava Man. Who knows what would have happened if JJ had made that move 10-15 seconds later?

Discreet Cat has looked like a machine but lets face it, hasnt he had one cupcake trip after another against short, not so super fields? Silver Train and Badge of Silver are credible animals but no superstars.

I know it. He ran a solid second for Christ sakes ( sorry) . When he made that monster of a move on the final turn to take the lead, I am willing to bet there wasn't a person in America watching that thought, Yup race over, done deal.
Was he the second coming of Secretariet, NO, is he a paper champion NO. The only major race he bypassed was the Belmont He ran in all the other major races for Three yr olds and destroyed what was thrown at him. Every great horse horse has a few losses next to his/her name. So he didn't win one race this year. A race he came in second to a much overlooked horse that has quite the resume himself.
The true sad part about this is we will never know how great Bernie could have been.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

I give up. Discreet Cat is the greatest thing since sliced bread because he beat some allowance bums with a moderately slow pace. Whatever.

You are being silly.

The first six races of Discreet Cat's career are, without question, as good as the first six for any horse in racing history.

Ghostzapper was obviously the best horse in training after his 3-year-old season, but people always reacted the same way you are when someone would declare him so.

I fondly remember those lovely people who would say (after GZ's 3-year-old season)...."It's crazy to call Ghostzapper the best and most exciting horse in training. And based on what? A win in the Vosburg over a crap field? He's never even ran beyond 7 furlongs. He lost the King's Bishop. Blah Blah...you are nuts."

Ghostzapper didn't have to spend two winters in Dubai either.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Losing the BC Classic by about a length as a 3yo to a very good horse is pretty impressive if you think about it.

While I don't agree that Bernardini was underrated....his repute was earned with one cup-cake trip after another.

I do however agree with you that he ran very well in the Breeders Cup Classic, far better than people seem to want to give him credit for running. It was also his first time facing real in-race adversity against top company...if anything, I was impressed with I saw from him.

He came up empty in the last 1/8th---but was understandably moved too soon, while finding himself further than he typically is, behind that very solid early pace.

I also agree that Bernardini could have developed further. In fact, a very rational case could be made that Bernardini's best race might have been his BC Classic loss. I also believe Invasor's best race was his Classic win...even though his winning performance in the Whitney is MASSIVELY underrated.

[Gander]

If Discreet Cat ran as much and against the fields Skip Away and Holy Bull regulary ran against, I doubt very much he'd be undefeated.
They are treating him like a glass statue. Its what is ruining horse racing. The all mighty breeding dollar. The races themselves are secondary matters.

So glad I got to see a horse like Skip Away.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Gander

If Discreet Cat ran as much and against the fields Skip Away and Holy Bull regulary ran against, I doubt very much he'd be undefeated.
They are treating him like a glass statue. Its what is ruining horse racing. The all mighty breeding dollar. The races themselves are secondary matters.

So glad I got to see a horse like Skip Away.

Oh...and I agree with everything you said.

However, I believe it's best to hold the kid gloves treatment DC has recieved, against the connections, and not the horse....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think the odds on Invasor speak that he was under-rated. The big boys were believed to be Lava Man & Bernardini, and DrugS explaination of the horses behind Invasor & Sun King explain why I think the race was under-rated, which may have affected what people thought of on Invasor. (that and the Suburban field wasn't all that hot either)

Maybe I need a better word for McLaughlin, Gorella & Prado...over-looked perhaps? Guess we'll wait to see on Eclipse day.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he the 2nd choice in the biggest race in the country?