Rachel vs. Zenyatta: Which run the better race?

[10 pnt move up]

Of the two races run last weekend I thought RA ran the superior race even with a perfect setup.

Yes Zenyatta had some extra weight, I aint a weight carrying person, so that means little to me. Yes it was a slow pace crawl and she had to come from last while losing ground, so what. I just think visually this was Zenyatta's second worse race of her career and as Drugs mentioned Shirreffs can crank them up for the big race like the best of them and this was not it.

RA is going to run fast times with setups like that, and even without great setups she is going to run fast like the preakness.

Zenyatta is never going to run all that fast unless the pace is really quick, which race has she run with a quick pace? My guess is those are her best figure races, and she probably won in a hand ride, right?

Thinking about the detention barn comment, and the "looking for a different challenge" comment from the owner, it seems to me they are going to point to the classic. Given they have other horses they shoudl run Tiago in the mile, and then run Madeo in the turf mile.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by tector

Not only that, it was plain that she did not like that track. I am not talking about Calvin's statements after the race. .

I never buy that junk from riders.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

RA was compromised by trip and fractions in the Preakness ... of course Zenyatta probably gets to her and goes by her late that day.

Still, we are taking about a 3yo filly in middle may vs. a 5yo that is easily the best older horse in the land on synthetic ... and easily the best older mare in the land on dirt too .. though more because the others kind of suck than anything else.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was waiting for the latest PACE FIGURES to come out so I could get my final opinion of the Preakness squared off. But thanks for pointing out the obvious -- your specialty.

As for the rest of it, you can make that case for just about any prolific winner: he/she beat a lot of nothings.

Tell you this much, BEYER BOY, there isn't a horse in history that has won ALL of its starts running the same way, like Z has. Sooner or later the SETUP or a BIAS gets all of them. That it hasn't to this point in her case, once again, indicates how special she really is.

P.S. were you consulted when Beyer decided to AD HOC change those POLY figs?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Thanks for pointing that out. I was waiting for the latest PACE FIGURES to come out so I could get my final opinion of the Preakness squared off. But thanks for pointing out the obvious -- your specialty.
?

I laughed, usually his obviousness comes after the fact as well.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

RA was compromised by trip and fractions in the Preakness ... of course Zenyatta probably gets to her and goes by her late that day.

Still, we are taking about a 3yo filly in middle may vs. a 5yo that is easily the best older horse in the land on synthetic ... and easily the best older mare in the land on dirt too .. though more because the others kind of suck than anything else.

I'm not convinced Zenyatta would have beat Rachel in the Preakness. Since we're throwing out hypotheticals, do you (fat man) think Zenyatta would have won the Preakness if Rachel had an easier pace?

Also has Zenyatta ever gone farther than 1 1/8th? Dont her owners/trainer not even want to run her farther than 1 1/8th?

And horseofcourse, I do really believe that Rachel did not handle the Pimlico track the same way she handled Churchill and Belmont. Not only did her jockey say so right after the race in which she won a classic (must have really been on his mind, I mean, how often do you hear a jockey making excuses eventhough he just WON a classic with a filly!), but just watching how easy she was moving at Belmont compared to Pimlico makes me believe the jockey. I dont really care that the race was given a 108... what does that mean anyway? I'm going off of what my eyes saw... not that that means anything either.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by tector

Not only that, it was plain that she did not like that track. I am not talking about Calvin's statements after the race. While the race was running I turned to my friend and said "Look at her--she's running choppy, she doesn't like this track." I thought it was clear then and there. So while some other people discounted his statement, I thought it fairly obvious.

If you win the Preakness over a track that is not your best, contesting a wicked pace, you are some freaking horse--or filly.

I thought she was going to lose watching her on the backstretch... It was like de-ja-vu watching Bernardini @ churchill. her stride and effort just didnt look the same as when racing on different surfaces.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

And horseofcourse, I do really believe that Rachel did not handle the Pimlico track the same way she handled Churchill and Belmont. Not only did her jockey say so right after the race in which she won a classic (must have really been on his mind, I mean, how often do you hear a jockey making excuses eventhough he just WON a classic with a filly!), but just watching how easy she was moving at Belmont compared to Pimlico makes me believe the jockey. I dont really care that the race was given a 108... what does that mean anyway? I'm going off of what my eyes saw... not that that means anything either.

I am not talented enough to tell watching a winning race that a horse isn't handling a track like tector can. She's an outstanding horse. I have no clue if she's better than Zenyatta.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

But thanks for pointing out the obvious -- your specialty.

What I point out only seems like the obvious because of how damn convincing and brilliant and correct I am.

If I somehow found out something that no one knows .. and I told every one .. you'd all be like "well duh! - no sh!t, does he think I'm stupid?"

Chalk it up to the greatness of DrugS - it's how I roll and stuff.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

What I point out only seems like the obvious because of how damn convincing and brilliant and correct I am.

If I somehow found out something that no one knows .. and I told every one .. you'd all be like "well duh! - no sh!t, does he think I'm stupid?"

Chalk it up to the greatness of DrugS - it's how I roll and stuff.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I laughed, usually his obviousness comes after the fact as well.

Yeah, usually, like...never.

Mikey Smith. Yay!!!!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I am not talented enough to tell watching a winning race that a horse isn't handling a track like tector can. She's an outstanding horse. I have no clue if she's better than Zenyatta.

Its my opinion that Rachel is better... just think if she continues to improve and races as a 5 year old, like what Z is now..

But I guess its impossible to prove until they race each other in a real race (not a match race - Rachel would have the obvious advantage). Shoot, when you really think about it they arent even running in the same division (not talking about age or sex).. one runs on turf alternative and one runs on dirt... makes it even harder to compare.

I'll tell ya what, even if Z doesnt race against Rachel... but if Z runs against boys in a grade 1 (hopefully on dirt) and wins, then I'll re-work my opinion (though I still may come up with the same answer).

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Chalk it up to the greatness of DrugS - it's how I roll and stuff.

You should really look into buying Jelly ROLL. I'm sure Wolfson would convince the connections to sell her to you.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

You should really look into buying Jelly ROLL. I'm sure Wolfson would convince the connections to sell her to you.

When have I ever once brought up Jelly Roll? ... and why in God's name would anyone want to touch a horse who's been dismal throughout his life while having only two God like trainers ... they being lifetime profitable ROI Jimmy Jerkens and Magical Marty Wolfson. Two friggin wizzards.

But hey, Tagg's got Frolic's Dream turning the corner!! She ran a vastly improved 5th in a 60K stake at Monmouth Park yesterday!

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

But hey, Tagg's got Frolic's Dream turning the corner!! She ran a vastly improved 5th in a 60K stake at Monmouth Park yesterday!

She did?

That's great! Maybe he got some shoe advice.

By the way sal, check your PM. You'll love the latest news.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Chalk it up to the greatness of DrugS - it's how I roll and stuff.

you do make me laugh, I mean that sincerely.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

When have I ever once brought up Jelly Roll? ... and why in God's name would anyone want to touch a horse who's been dismal throughout his life while having only two God like trainers ... they being lifetime profitable ROI Jimmy Jerkens and Magical Marty Wolfson. Two friggin wizzards.

But hey, Tagg's got Frolic's Dream turning the corner!! She ran a vastly improved 5th in a 60K stake at Monmouth Park yesterday!

Jelly Roll Rumble, then?

If not, how do you roll?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

you kept bringing up Jelly Roll Rumble as some kind of proof that his only two career trainers don't have a big edge because JRR is a bum.

Hey, maybe if Gary Sciaaca gets a hold of him he will turn it around.

That horse just stinks. Like Cannon says .. he's Ozzie Canseco or something.

[10 pnt move up]

Shirreffs said a race against Rachel Alexandra is a real possibility.

"Obviously that's an option, and it's something that Mr. Moss and I will discuss later on," he said. "Rachel is in her 3-year-old campaign, so she's running in 3-year-old races. There's no discussion until she doesn't run in 3-year-old races."


I hope people realize this, in theory RA could run in restricted races (through the Gazelle I believe) thus acing Zenyatta out of any chance at HOY.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Tell you this much, BEYER BOY, there isn't a horse in history that has won ALL of its starts running the same way, like Z has. Sooner or later the SETUP or a BIAS gets all of them. That it hasn't to this point in her case, once again, indicates how special she really is.

P.S. were you consulted when Beyer decided to AD HOC change those POLY figs?

Never knew you were that funny...

I would have been more impressed by Rachel Alexandra had she been up on the pace, doing the dirty work rather than watching the 2 pace setters slug it out and then pouncing, it was a good effort nevertheless, however if I was to be picky about it the race really fell into her lap, she had the trip of trips. No adversity whatsoever.

[King Glorious]

I get the feeling that the only chance this has of happening is if Monmouth or Delaware creates a race. Shirreffs doesn't want to run out of the detention barn so that would make NY unlikely. Jackson doesn't want to run on junk so that rules out a few other places. Monmouth made a race for Big Brown last year. Maybe they'll do one for this race this year.