Swale....Winning Two Legs of The Triple Crown

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking from my post?

2 times you had a bad feeling about a big fav and both times they lost. This is becoming a trend.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

2 times you had a bad feeling about a big fav and both times they lost. This is becoming a trend.

Oh ok, but I hope this trend doesn't continue.

[Revidere]

To me a truly underrated horse that fell into the sandwich category (Derby/Belmont) was Bold Forbes. He broke two stakes records (Bay Shore and Wood Memorial) on the way to the Derby, and at the time he won in Louisville, he had the fastest wire to wire and 5th fastest time overall. Even though he lost the Preakness, his race was remarkable. He literally tore off his right hind leaving the gate and pan-fried Honest Pleasure in 1:09 flat for six furlongs (also a track record at the time). Even with that , he was beaten only four lengths and then came back to win the Belmont in one of the great training and riding feats in racing history. I always thought that if he was owned by racing blueblood (see old, crusty, establishment money)he would have been looked at more favorably.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To me a truly underrated horse that fell into the sandwich category (Derby/Belmont) was Bold Forbes. He broke two stakes records (Bay Shore and Wood Memorial) on the way to the Derby, and at the time he won in Louisville, he had the fastest wire to wire and 5th fastest time overall. Even though he lost the Preakness, his race was remarkable. He literally tore off his right hind leaving the gate and pan-fried Honest Pleasure in 1:09 flat for six furlongs (also a track record at the time). Even with that , he was beaten only four lengths and then came back to win the Belmont in one of the great training and riding feats in racing history. I always thought that if he was owned by racing blueblood (see old, crusty, establishment money)he would have been looked at more favorably.

He was a really neat horse and Cordero's ride in the Belmont was an all-timer. I was actually at Aqueduct for his win in the Wood.

Who beat him in the Vosburgh?

[Bystander]

There's actually a nice little book by Swale's former groom Michael Klein, titled Track Conditions. It's a memoir, not sure if it's still in print, but an interesting read nonetheless.

[Linny]

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

Chateaugay was 1963 I think.

Woody was high on Swale once Devil's Bag showed that he was not moving up at 3. Before that, though he was fond of Swale, he was convinced that Devil's Bag was the second coming of Man O' War. Swale was from a nice Claiborne family and (IMO) would likely have made a very good stallion.

Champions is the best racing book ever. Anyone who cares to debate the relative merits of horses of different eras MUST have read it. Like Andy, I was lucky to have seen horses like Secretariat, Forego, Ruffian, Slew, Bid etc. When you see horses that did amazing things like Forego's campaign in the fall of 1974 or Exceller and Slew in the Gold Cup or even Personal Ensign running much of her unbeaten career with steel pins in her leg, you have some perspective. I've read more racing history that I can recount and have gone over those PP's of horses from decades ago (20's, 30's etc) while reading books about the greats of each era. It's amazing what you find.
As for Big Brown, if Proudinsky had romped in the Joe Hirsch Turf Classic, I'd have been more impressed with him.

[Indian Charlie]

I was told by a reputable source once that Swale's death was shocking.

[Danzig]

well, of course it was shocking. eight days after the belmont, getting a bath and he just collapsed.
one article i read said they never did come up with a definitive reason for his death.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

I'm glad somebody commented on the post questioning the training skills of Woody Stephens. That was a highlight for me.

Yeah.....he really sucked. He's far and away the luckiest trainer to ever win five straight Belmonts.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Linny

Chateaugay was 1963 I think.

Yeah, you're right. I just finished reading "The Big Horse" and the dude who wrote it mentioned Chateaugay's Derby as the race that got him hooked. I coulda sworn he said it was 1970 at the time, but either way it was wrong.

I wish "Champions" wasn't restricted to just champions. I see they snuck in horses like Lure and Best Pal, why don't they just toss in the rest?

Seriously they should put in all multiple Grade 1 winners and classic winners. Cut out the useless text if you have to. Bet Twice, Java Gold, Star Of Cozzene, Bien Bien, Proud Truth, Gate Dancer, Tabasco Cat, Grand Canyon, Seeking The Gold, Dancing Spree, Nasr El Arab, Great Communicator, Cryptoclearance, Gorgeous, With Approval, Fraise, Miss Brio, Ogygian, Mogambo, Polish Navy, Fran's Valentine, Lakeway, Sardula, Astra, Broad Brush, etc., etc.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Linny

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

Wasn't the Preakness the only time he was off the board?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Wasn't the Preakness the only time he was off the board?

yes it was

14-9-2-2


At 2:
Won Young America S. [G1], Breeders' Futurity [G2], Futurity S. [G1], Saratoga Special S. [G2]
3rd Hopeful S. [G1]
At 3:
Won Kentucky Derby [G1], Belmont S. [G1], Florida Derby [G1], Hutcheson S. [G3]
2nd Lexington S.
3rd Fountain Of Youth S. [G2]

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

Champions is the best racing book ever. Anyone who cares to debate the relative merits of horses of different eras MUST have read it.

Best advice of the night

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, of course it was shocking. eight days after the belmont, getting a bath and he just collapsed.
one article i read said they never did come up with a definitive reason for his death.

Uh, that was a play on words Danzig.

The word shocking was a play on words. He didn't just drop dead while taking a bath.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Uh, that was a play on words Danzig.

The word shocking was a play on words. He didn't just drop dead while taking a bath.

i thought it might be while i was replying.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was a really neat horse and Cordero's ride in the Belmont was an all-timer. I was actually at Aqueduct for his win in the Wood.

Who beat him in the Vosburgh?

My Juliet. It's Freezing was moved up as Bold Forbes was DQ'd. Very depressing day. If he won that day, he would have been considered for a sprinting Eclipse as well as 3YO. Turns out he ripped off his quarter leaving the gate and finished on 3 legs.

[blackthroatedwind]

As I recell, it wasn't so easy getting him out of his stall before the race.