Ellis Park closing, now opening

[stonegossard]

In the end the horsemen are screwing both themselves and the game up. In the end a lot of horseplayers who dont have access to these tracks (CRC,CD,...etc) will permanently alienate them. I know on my end I dont even bother looking at CD entries or following their meet at all anymore. While I normally make a few trips to Calder by now, I have not gone once and have not made a single wager there yet. At some point if the horsemen at Calder smarten up and let out of state betting/adw's back into the game, I still probably wont bother. The quality of horses at CRC is beyond a joke, it might take a long time to fix the damage that has been done.

I hope the horsemen down here in Fla are happy with the result so far...they have all but destroyed horse racing down in S. Florida.

I applaud the owner of Ellis of basically telling the horsemen to go screw off. The guy cant run a business without out of state betting coming in, and the horsemen wont budge. I guess the horsemen would rather not run at all. Real smart move on the horsemen's end. Hopefully the McDonald's down in the Ellis area is hiring.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

In the end the horsemen are screwing both themselves and the game up. In the end a lot of horseplayers who dont have access to these tracks (CRC,CD,...etc) will permanently alienate them. I know on my end I dont even bother looking at CD entries or following their meet at all anymore. While I normally make a few trips to Calder by now, I have not gone once and have not made a single wager there yet. At some point if the horsemen at Calder smarten up and let out of state betting/adw's back into the game, I still probably wont bother. The quality of horses at CRC is beyond a joke, it might take a long time to fix the damage that has been done.

I hope the horsemen down here in Fla are happy with the result so far...they have all but destroyed horse racing down in S. Florida.

I applaud the owner of Ellis of basically telling the horsemen to go screw off. The guy cant run a business without out of state betting coming in, and the horsemen wont budge. I guess the horsemen would rather not run at all. Real smart move on the horsemen's end. Hopefully the McDonald's down in the Ellis area is hiring.

well said....there is going to be a price to pay for all this ADW/Horseman/Track crap that is going on and it just might be the the end of racing in many parts of the country. Next up is socal. Not sure when the sport is going to realize that its the customer who makes the business model work, not the service provider. No customer, no business. The are slowly driving us away. My handle last year, 132k, this year its just less then 4k. Hope these guys are happy.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I think it is a great move by Geary. Screw the horsemen. Overall, they are getting more than they deserve anyway via slot subsidies.

Just as there is far from any guarantee of making money betting, there shouldn't be one for being a horsemen either.

They want more money. Where does anyone here think that money is going to come from? ADWs won't stick around if they can't make a profit. Racetracks are the same. So, where would this "additional" horsemen's money come from? Of course the usual, the bettor will pay for it.

The game needs ADWs to survive. Do the horsemen honestly think people will come back to the track? Do they think we will open 15 separate accounts so we can bet on all the tracks? If so, they are idiots. The only hope they have is to get people to bet more money, not by making it harder to bet and taking more of what we do.

I agree there is too much welfare (slot $) for horsemen.

At the same time, if ADW is the future, how can you criticize them for trying to get a bigger piece of that? And at the worst, what can happen? No more Ellis Park? It's not like there aren't other places to run or wager on.

Geary was screwed from the start. There will never be slots in KY because all the 4th generation politicians are all related to all the 4th generation fat dudes that run Keeneland. And slot machines are not in their interest. If there were going to be slots, they'd be there by now.

[parsixfarms]

I don't know the numbers being talked about (at what point Churchill's ADW is sufficiently profitable in its eyes), but all anyone has done for the past year or so is repeatedly bash the "corporate" mentality of Churchill Downs as it relates to the company's poor treatment of the bettor/customer. Why all of a sudden is it assumed that it is the horsemen that are wrong in this dispute? Has anyone though that maybe the problem is that Churchill is treating the horsemen the same way it treats the bettor/customer?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I agree there is too much welfare (slot $) for horsemen.

"Too much" based on what calculus? Where do you think it should go instead?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I don't know the numbers being talked about (at what point Churchill's ADW is sufficiently profitable in its eyes), but all anyone has done for the past year or so is repeatedly bash the "corporate" mentality of Churchill Downs as it relates to the company's poor treatment of the bettor/customer. Why all of a sudden is it assumed that it is the horsemen that are wrong in this dispute? Has anyone though that maybe the problem is that Churchill is treating the horsemen the same way it treats the bettor/customer?

Churchill's stock is down 40% since May 2nd, the start of the impasse.

They're being treated sufficiently poor enough.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Churchill's stock is down 40% since May 2nd, the start of the impasse.

They're being treated sufficiently poor enough.

What does Churchill's stock price have to do with who is right and wrong in this dispute?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

What does Churchill's stock price have to do with who is right and wrong in this dispute?

Nothing other than to note Churchill is getting hurt. And who can really say the horsemen are being harmed? They can load a trailer and go to Chicago or Cincy.

Who is right and who is wrong on this deal? You tell me.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Nothing other than to note Churchill is getting hurt. And who can really say the horsemen are being harmed? They can load a trailer and go to Chicago or Cincy.

Who is right and who is wrong on this deal? You tell me.

As my earlier post said, I don't know the specific numbers, so I can't offer an opinion as to precisely who is right and who is wrong. However, since there hasn't been much public negotiation of the $$ underlying the impasse, I fail to see how others are able to point a finger in one direction or another. My point was questioning why some on here seem intent on blindly blaming the horsemen for the impasse.

For the record, the horsemen competing at the meet are being hurt, as purses have been cut over 20%. Furthermore, it's not that simple to ship to run somewhere else (and both of the tracks that you mentioned have an even lower purse structure than Churchill), when your stable - and its employees and families - are based elsewhere. Do you know the cost of shipping these days, with the cost of gas?

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

well said....there is going to be a price to pay for all this ADW/Horseman/Track crap that is going on and it just might be the the end of racing in many parts of the country. Next up is socal. Not sure when the sport is going to realize that its the customer who makes the business model work, not the service provider. No customer, no business. The are slowly driving us away. My handle last year, 132k, this year its just less then 4k. Hope these guys are happy.

I forgot about California. If it's the same group who are representing the horsemen at CRC,CD,LS,LAD.....then I would think they will recommend to the cali horsemen to take the same stance and destroy racing out there. Del Mar's meet is bad enough now with polytrack...tiny pools and cut purses would be horrendous on top of that.

I am in a similar position as you betting....I am not betting nearly as much as last year and I would say 90% of my betting is now at Belmont.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

As my earlier post said, I don't know the specific numbers, so I can't offer an opinion as to precisely who is right and who is wrong. However, since there hasn't been much public negotiation of the $$ underlying the impasse, I fail to see how others are able to point a finger in one direction or another. My point was questioning why some on here seem intent on blindly blaming the horsemen for the impasse.

For the record, the horsemen competing at the meet are being hurt, as purses have been cut over 20%. Furthermore, it's not that simple to ship to run somewhere else (and both of the tracks that you mentioned have an even lower purse structure than Churchill), when your stable - and its employees and families - are based elsewhere. Do you know the cost of shipping these days, with the cost of gas?

To me that implies Churchill's purses were overcompetitive.

What does it cost to move, say, 10 horses 300 miles? I'll guess $5,000. Is that close? Weren't these horses moving or shipping next week anyway?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

To me that implies Churchill's purses were overcompetitive.

What does it cost to move, say, 10 horses 300 miles? I'll guess $5,000. Is that close? Weren't these horses moving or shipping next week anyway?

No, that implies that not much money is being handled at River Downs and Arlington compared to Churchill.

I can't speak to the plans of the trainers. Some might have been going to Ellis, some to Arlington, some to Saratoga, some elsewhere. Some probably live in KY, so it's not as easy to just go someplace else. I thought you were suggesting that they could stay in KY and ship to race; round-trip, that can be pretty pricey, depending on the destination.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/200...-is-a-scratch/

Now the negotiating really begins...







It's far from over.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

http://www.courierpress.com/news/200...-is-a-scratch/

Now the negotiating really begins...







It's far from over.

if the horsemen cave though wont that tell the other tracks what they should do to get their way?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I agree there is too much welfare (slot $) for horsemen.

At the same time, if ADW is the future, how can you criticize them for trying to get a bigger piece of that? And at the worst, what can happen? No more Ellis Park? It's not like there aren't other places to run or wager on.

It isn't like the ADWs are making money hand over fist. If you ask for more from their cut, you risk putting them out of business.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It isn't like the ADWs are making money hand over fist. If you ask for more from their cut, you risk putting them out of business.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know all the percentages, but this is really a Twin Spires issue. As I understand the horsemen's position, because Churchill is simultaneously the host track and acting as the ADW (as opposed to a Youbet, for example), it's essentially getting an additional piece of the same pie (a piece that it would not get if the bet were placed through another ADW - and Churchill has prohibited other ADWs from taking its signal). The horsemen are asking Churchill to give up some portion of the piece that Churchill doesn't currently have. That seems to be fairly reasonable to me.

[cmorioles]

If that were true, you could bet the tracks on Youbet and TVG, no?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If that were true, you could bet the tracks on Youbet and TVG, no?

Churchill has prohibited Youbet and others from taking its signal; it is trying force players off other ADWs onto Twin Spires, so it can get both the ADW fee and what is essentially the host track fee. If the bet were through Youbet, Churchill would only get the host track fee. As I understand the issue, the horsemen are seeking part of the ADW fee that Churchill would be getting in addition to the host track fee.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't get this. What possible reason is there for the horsemen to block the signal for Ellis Park? Their feud is with CDI. Why bring Ellis into it?

The dispute is a national one not just with CDI. CDI has just made it worse than it needs to be by filing lawsuits as a delay tactic, refusing to negotiate, and cutting purses far beyond what was called for.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I think it is a great move by Geary. Screw the horsemen. Overall, they are getting more than they deserve anyway via slot subsidies.

Just as there is far from any guarantee of making money betting, there shouldn't be one for being a horsemen either.

They want more money. Where does anyone here think that money is going to come from? ADWs won't stick around if they can't make a profit. Racetracks are the same. So, where would this "additional" horsemen's money come from? Of course the usual, the bettor will pay for it.

The game needs ADWs to survive. Do the horsemen honestly think people will come back to the track? Do they think we will open 15 separate accounts so we can bet on all the tracks? If so, they are idiots. The only hope they have is to get people to bet more money, not by making it harder to bet and taking more of what we do.

Do you have any clue of what you are talking about or are you just so biased against horseman that you ignore the issues?