UPDATE: Levine's NJ horses get all clear - Page 3

Scav · #41 06-26-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

She's no waitress.

Still wouldn't be kicking her out of bed, at night or in the morning.

reese · #42 06-27-2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scav

Well, i thought of the same thing in regards to Catalano, crap would be flying.

I need to find out of they do TCO2 testing in Illinois, that is what I want to know.

I don't think Catalano is blood doping, becuase from what I read about it, it takes time, and he runs his horses every 14-21 days.

But I wouldn't be past the idea that Catalano might be using something that makes sure the last alot longer. Some of his horses do get a mysterious late quick, right when they look like they are about to hang, looks like they shoot out of a cannon.

He borrowed the recipe from Pletcher

Kasept · #43 06-30-2008, 09:56 AM

NJ officials have called Levine with the all clear on his horses for anything they tested them on...

Bigsmc · #44 06-30-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

NJ officials have called Levine with the all clear on his horses for anything they tested them on...

Exactly. They can raid and pull blood until the cows come home. They won't find anything unless the tests are capable of finding the current designer drug du jour or be able to see past the masking agents.

Kasept · #45 06-30-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Exactly. They can raid and pull blood until the cows come home. They won't find anything unless the tests are capable of finding the current designer drug du jour or be able to see past the masking agents.

There were no 'designer drugs' involved here..

the_fat_man · #46 06-30-2008, 12:28 PM

I wonder what would happen when you combine:

1) an above average intellect

2) a indefatigable work ethic

3) long term experience in the game

4) a genuine love for the game

5) a 'gambler's' understanding of the game

You probably would get a trainer that's a little bit better than that pack of NY trainers who can't quite figure out whether their horses are sprinter or routers or prefer dirt of turf; and thus spend YEARS going repeatedly from one to the other. Clearly, there's the OTHER SIDE of this.

I have no problem assuming that Levine is above average and on a hot streak.

Bigsmc · #47 06-30-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

There were no 'designer drugs' involved here..

Okay....

You obviously know more about the situation than I.

Kasept · #48 06-30-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Okay.. You obviously know more about the situation than I.

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

freddymo · #49 06-30-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Ok we can go with no EPO.. Save the Smith Barney comment please...So you don't think Levine has found something, perhaps legal. that is currently working in his horses system? Please.. I am not suggesting Levine is a juicer but the best guys are on the cutting edge of the chemical market, meaning if it's out there and legal they are learning about it before people catch up. It's called being ahead of your competition it surely isn't a hot streak. It's a "I am good and I have an advantage currently streak" plain and simple... It's not cheating its beating the system. IMO

Rudeboyelvis · #50 06-30-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

It's sad that speculation comes down to it, but there are plenty of drugs, designer or not, that can boost red blood cell counts besides EPO. Did they test for Darbepoietin as well? How about the multitude of synthetic dirvatives developed to treat anemia in humans? I'd sleep better knowing that there is a full panel of these drugs tested for, not just EPO.
When someone is winning at a clip that he is winning at, and their horses fall apart off the claim the way that many of his tend to do, then it is hard to not expect someone to call shenanigans, proof or not.

Again, it is sad - A guy can't win - if he is successful, he'll be accused of cheating. If he loses, he'll get fired. I feel for all of them, they put on the show every day, and get nothing but a bullseye on their backs for it... I personally accept the fact that Leavine is above board and performing at a high level in a perfectly legal manner, because that is what we have to go on. I'd just think it wouldn't be that much more difficult or cost prohibitive to have a nationally sanctioned body run thorough tests via frozen samples.

Bigsmc · #51 06-30-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

I wasn't even going to respond, but....

Absolutely, I think a guy like Bruce Levine could use EPO. I'm sorry that I think this, but his peers have eroded my last thread of trust. I'm sure you know Mr. Levine and have formed your opinion from first hand knowledge. I don't know Mr. Levine, so I can only draw my conclusions by looking at his statistics and compare them with other trainers.

I deleted the rest of my lengthy post. My opinion on drugs in racing is like a gnat on an elephant's ass.

parsixfarms · #52 06-30-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

It's not cheating its beating the system. IMO

I feel like the duck in the Yogi Berra AFLAC commercial.

Rupert Pupkin · #53 06-30-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Are you saying that none of the fairly successful trainers would use EPO right now or are you saying that none of them have ever used it?

From everything I have heard, there were definitely a few guys guys using it a few years ago. I don't know about right now.

freddymo · #54 06-30-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I feel like the duck in the Yogi Berra AFLAC commercial.

look if it isnt a banned substance its hard work and horsemanship get it? or perhaps Mr Byk is levite(a lil jew culture for your KY self) Blackthroat can explain

parsixfarms · #55 06-30-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

look if it isnt a banned substance its hard work and horsemanship get it? or perhaps Mr Byk is levite(a lil jew culture for your KY self) Blackthroat can explain

I'm not from KY, and you shouldn't make assumptions on cultural backgrounds.

I get what you're saying: it ain't cheating if you don't get caught. But let's be clear "beating the system" = cheating. (And I'm not accusing Levine of cheating.)

sumitas · #56 06-30-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

It's sad that speculation comes down to it, but there are plenty of drugs, designer or not, that can boost red blood cell counts besides EPO. Did they test for Darbepoietin as well? How about the multitude of synthetic dirvatives developed to treat anemia in humans? I'd sleep better knowing that there is a full panel of these drugs tested for, not just EPO.
When someone is winning at a clip that he is winning at, and their horses fall apart off the claim the way that many of his tend to do, then it is hard to not expect someone to call shenanigans, proof or not.

Again, it is sad - A guy can't win - if he is successful, he'll be accused of cheating. If he loses, he'll get fired. I feel for all of them, they put on the show every day, and get nothing but a bullseye on their backs for it... I personally accept the fact that Leavine is above board and performing at a high level in a perfectly legal manner, because that is what we have to go on. I'd just think it wouldn't be that much more difficult or cost prohibitive to have a nationally sanctioned body run thorough tests via frozen samples.

Agreed Rudeboy...hope it happens soon.

Cannon Shell · #57 06-30-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

There were no 'designer drugs' involved here..

How exactly do we know this? Isnt that the whole problem with the "designer drugs"? That they cant test for what they dont know about? Anybody caught with EPO is just plain stupid. Balco has shown how easy it is to alter an existing drug at the molecular level, render it undetectable and still keep its potency.

Cannon Shell · #58 06-30-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Steve...you know better than to use this arguement..."I have too much to lose..." Sounds like Roger Clemens. He didnt fail a drug test either...

I am not implying that Levine is clean or dirty. But the defense that "i have never had a violation" means that they may just be a careful cheater as opposed to the sloppy ones who regularly make headlines. As Eric points out with regularity, it is close to impossible or at least hard to tell who is clean and who isnt anymore. As a trainer I just say that we all pretty much use the same feed, the same hay, the same help, the same tracks, the same vets, the same jockeys...yet some guys seem to have magical powers despite all the similarities. It is hard not to be skeptical when there is no apparent advantage yet the numbers become extraordinary. A clembuterol positive doesnt make a trainer dirty anymore than a "spotless" record makes anyone clean. The REAL drug issue that Andy and others have spoke about wont show up on anybody's record because the commissions are testing for stuff that pretty much went out of style 10 years ago.

TheSpyder · #59 06-30-2008, 04:58 PM

Not to get off subject, but the entire thread can't help but remind me of this.... Jim Carrey as Vera De Milo:

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=718

On a serious note, you only have to look at the power of the pharmaceutical industry to know they have much more money to throw at government than anyone else does and if they see a profit, they'll do anything to protect it. Just ask your grandmother how many pills she takes.

I've heard mention an idea that having the vets work for the track and keep up and be responsible for what they use. Why is that idea not being brought forward.

Finally, enjoy the clip. It's one of my favorites.

Spyder

fpsoxfan · #60 06-30-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

Not to get off subject, but the entire thread can't help but remind me of this.... Jim Carrey as Vera De Milo:

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=718

On a serious note, you only have to look at the power of the pharmaceutical industry to know they have much more money to throw at government than anyone else does and if they see a profit, they'll do anything to protect it. Just ask your grandmother how many pills she takes.

I've heard mention an idea that having the vets work for the track and keep up and be responsible for what they use. Why is that idea not being brought forward.

Finally, enjoy the clip. It's one of my favorites.

Spyder

Funny Clip Spyd!!! He's nuts!!