Lasix

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

There's a shock, vets are pro-medication. Gee they're not remotely benefiting financially from the Lasix,etc. that they put in the horses. The AVMA is also pro-slaughter. They might call what they're peddling here pro-horse. I don't believe that's the case myself. Even if you think the horses shouldn't be neglected and are convinced that that'll happen, you can be pro-euthanasia. I don't see them out there pushing people with lousy colts to geld them. The more horses with Lasix that run and go on to breed, the worse the bleeding situation gets in future generations. It should be a negative when you go to a stallion that he was a known bleeder. Not unlike a really weak hind end or pencil thin pasterns. Not 'oh nevermind, he'll just take Lasix.' It's a defect plain and simple. The heart-lung mechanism is one of if not the most important things on a horse. As wonderfully conformed as Secretariat was, he did what he did thanks to heart-lung efficiency. Need to see that in action? Watch the gusts in the Canadian International. As for the masking of other drugs, yeah I guess the World Anti-Doping Agency has it on the banned list because it masks other drugs based on no evidence whatsoever.

The World Anti-Doping Agency sounds authoritative but aren't these the people that framed Floyd Landis

Question I have:

Is Lasix used extensively on horses that have not bled or have bled what might be considered insignficant amounts ? (I guess insignificant would mean no breathing problems or infections likely, etc... because the amount of bleeding is so small).

Once a horse bleeds, its Lasix for life, if the trainer so chooses?
I also know that in Texas anyway, a horse can get on lasix if bleeding occurs
during a workout which makes sense. But the vets have to have a look.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Question I have:

Is Lasix used extensively on horses that have not bled or have bled what might be considered insignficant amounts ? (I guess insignificant would mean no breathing problems or infections likely, etc... because the amount of bleeding is so small).

Once a horse bleeds, its Lasix for life, if the trainer so chooses?

If a horse shows a propensity to bleed even a small amount they have a greater chance of bleeding signifigntly in the future. Since very few horses come with crystal balls to tell us if today is the day that we bleed badly it is used as a preventative measure in many cases.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If a horse shows a propensity to bleed even a small amount they have a greater chance of bleeding signifigntly in the future. Since very few horses come with crystal balls to tell us if today is the day that we bleed badly it is used as a preventative measure in many cases.

Vet has to give the OK in the first place but not thereafter?
And does the horse have to bleed.
In other words, if a horse has never bled, Lasix is
still used, or bleeding must have occurred.

And then
once it occurs, since it is likely the horse will bleed again,
its used as prevention.

[tap]

"The rules are already tilted towards the cheaters simply by spending so much time and money on bs like Lasix and steroids and ignoring the real performance enhancers that currently go undetected and unresearched."

You are sounding like Scuds. And I don't mean that in a bad way. This is what he keeps screaming and getting flamed about.

[Riot]

A vet has to observe and certify that the horse bled in a work or a race, and the horse can then go on the offical "bleeder's list" so it can get the drugs to try and prevent bleeding.

Horses that have bled are tracked by the offical track vet, and have varying periods of mandatory time off from racing after a bleeding episode.

The various jurisdictions have their own regulations.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

There's a shock, vets are pro-medication. Gee they're not remotely benefiting financially from the Lasix,etc. that they put in the horses. The AVMA is also pro-slaughter. They might call what they're peddling here pro-horse. I don't believe that's the case myself. Even if you think the horses shouldn't be neglected and are convinced that that'll happen, you can be pro-euthanasia. I don't see them out there pushing people with lousy colts to geld them. The more horses with Lasix that run and go on to breed, the worse the bleeding situation gets in future generations. It should be a negative when you go to a stallion that he was a known bleeder. Not unlike a really weak hind end or pencil thin pasterns. Not 'oh nevermind, he'll just take Lasix.' It's a defect plain and simple. The heart-lung mechanism is one of if not the most important things on a horse. As wonderfully conformed as Secretariat was, he did what he did thanks to heart-lung efficiency. Need to see that in action? Watch the gusts in the Canadian International. As for the masking of other drugs, yeah I guess the World Anti-Doping Agency has it on the banned list because it masks other drugs based on no evidence whatsoever.

So...are you proposing that if you bleed, you can't run? Or should they run despite it? Or are all bleeders just a fallacy to get lasix...or...well...what are you saying should be done if they bleed..assuming you believe they bleed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

The heart-lung mechanism is one of if not the most important things on a horse.

Wild horses were never meant to run like T-breds do. Tens of thousands of years of evolution cannot be undone in a heartbeat.

The game involves horses running at very high speeds in some cases up to 2 minutes straight.
If you got all those guts coming forward on a diaphragm that is right on those huge lungs that contains massive numbers of very tiny capillaries, guts slamming into them from behind for two minutes (each time a horses front hooves hit the ground), I find it hard to believe that capillaries will not break.

I really dont know how easily this can be bred out. I dont think anyone does. If you find a horse that never bleeds and mate this to a horse that never bleeds, we cannot assume the offspring will be the same. There might be a myriad of reasons some horses might not bleed. One major reason could be because they are slow. I know the horses that run the really long course races do not bleed nearly as often if at all... horses basically gallop these courses.

We want fast horses over short distances (1 1/4 being short). Lots of inertia involved in that type of running. So lots of damage.

The horse was never meant to do what is asked of these animals, they just were not meant for this. We bred them to run, and run hard. So all sorts of consequences follow. I dont like this, but have accepted this. And I surely dont want horses being pushed on with lungs full of blood, or having to face the consequences of massive septic infection due to all the crap that might enter bleeding capillaries or grow in blood within lungs.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If a horse shows a propensity to bleed even a small amount they have a greater chance of bleeding signifigntly in the future. Since very few horses come with crystal balls to tell us if today is the day that we bleed badly it is used as a preventative measure in many cases.

Every horse in the first 2yo race at Kee was on Lasix. I tend to think it is used a lot more liberally than you let on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Every horse in the first 2yo race at Kee was on Lasix. I tend to think it is used a lot more liberally than you let on.

You dont need me to tell you when or where it is used since it is right there in black and white. Are 2 year olds somehow immune to bleeding? As long as there is equal access and the information is made public I dont see why you would care.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You dont need me to tell you when or where it is used since it is right there in black and white. Are 2 year olds somehow immune to bleeding? As long as there is equal access and the information is made public I dont see why you would care.

I don't see why anyone cares.

The author's article has some compelling statistics, but none of them correlate with Lasix use other than the timing of the legalization of the drug and the decline of field sizes and races run per horse. Quite possibly sheer coincidence, although he says,

It can't be a coincidence that the introduction of Lasix came at precisely the time a trend began whereby horses make fewer and fewer starts each year.

Why can't it be a coincidence?

Another gem,

So, it appears that Lasix doesn't solve bleeding or keep horses in training longer.

How does Lasix not solve bleeding problem. Does he have any statistics of horses bleeding through Lasix vs. horses that don't, in order to help his stance that it does not solve bleeding? I don't think it will ever be completely solved, but any trainer or vet can tell you it definitely helps the bleeding.

He also states,

There is strong evidence that it is detrimental to the long-term well-being of the horse.

Where is that evidence? The aforementioned smaller field sizes and less races per career? There are no other reasons that horses are running less and less often? It's solely the fault of Lasix? Please.

If he offered up some medical or physical proof that Lasix is making the breed more fragile, then we could have a discussion of it's positives and negatives. Otherwise this is just a poorly researched witch hunt.

[cmorioles]

I'm just curious why they need lasix without ever having raced. About 99% of them get lasix first time out now. Those that don't get it are at a competitive disadvantage, plain and simple.

There is very little doubt in my mind that lasix enables horses to run faster whether they bleed or not, thus everyone uses it.

As for why I would care, I happen to like the sport. Horses ran a lot more and broke down a lot less before lasix and other drugs were legalized. I'd like to see that happen again someday, though I know I won't.

[philcski]

Here's the problem with his claim that Lasix is the cause for declining field size- bleeding has NOT caused reduced fields, trainers seduced by the completely BOGUS Ragozin idea that significant time off between races is required for optimal performance (see: Denis of Cork); not to mention hundreds of years of inbreeding for speed which has made the breed more fragile.

Horses used to run 30+ times a year. Now it's 15 for even the "hardest knocking" types. Multiply the number of races run and reduce the number of starts per year, even with a siginficant increase in total registered foals per year, and you have reduced fields.

[MisterB]

You don't see this across the POND, because they don't want to breed bleeders. Easy that way

Bustin Stones ran 1st time L, just because he showed some indication of blood, and Bruce played the safe side. Can't blame for 20.00 bucks, and his 1st G1

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm just curious why they need lasix without ever having raced. About 99% of them get lasix first time out now. Those that don't get it are at a competitive disadvantage, plain and simple.

There is very little doubt in my mind that lasix enables horses to run faster whether they bleed or not, thus everyone uses it.

As for why I would care, I happen to like the sport. Horses ran a lot more and broke down a lot less before lasix and other drugs were legalized. I'd like to see that happen again someday, though I know I won't.

This is simply not true. Do you or anyone else have any evidence that horses brokedown less? They only started collecting the data recently on breakdowns and horses making fewer starts has been a trend since 1960 which is long before lasix.

[Riot]

You don't see this across the POND, because they don't want to breed bleeders. Easy that way

The same number of Thoroughbred horses seem to bleed in England, France, Japan, Australia as bleed in the US. Check the research (google, PubMed, etc)

We in the US are allowed to try and prevent bleeding by administering medication before a race, the other countries do not allow that (the horse is allowed to bleed while racing)

Here's the AAEP general comment on EIPH:

Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage (EIPH) or bleeding

This occupational disease is a major lower respiratory problem of athletic horses. Horses with EIPH bleed from the lungs during intensive exercise. Usually the hemorrhage is minor but can at times be profuse. Fatalities are extremely rare.

The cause of EIPH is unclear but several factors are evident. There is a definite relationship between small airway disease (bronchitis), alterations in the vasculature of the lung in the dorsal-caudal (upper back) tip of the lung field, and EIPH.

Until about 20 years ago, the condition was termed epistaxis (nosebleed) and the hemorrhage was thought to originate somewhere in the head. The introduction of the fiberoptic endoscope to equine veterinary practice in the early 1970s allowed the safe and effective visualization of the upper respiratory tract of horses for the first time. It showed that the blood actually originated from the lungs. Furthermore, less than one horse in 20 which has EIPH has blood at the nostrils.

University studies indicate a significant percentage of racehorses, as high as 85% in one study, experience EIPH to some degree at one time or another.

There are no indications to suggest that the incidence of EIPH has increased in recent times as the incidence of epistaxis (bleeding from the nostrils) has remained essentially constant over the last century. Only the diagnostic capabilities have improved.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

WCW.

[Cannon Shell]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ficial-effects

I particularly enjoy this part


Once the study results are widely circulated, the authors anticipate that some racing jurisdictions may reconsider their ban on the use of furosemide.

“It is likely that racing jurisdictions will reconsider, in one way or another, their position on the use of furosemide,” they said in a statement. “However, the decision to allow or disallow the use is based on the balance of a number of factors, and resolution of this complex situation will take some time.

“The challenge will now be for countries such as England, Hong Kong, Australia and South Africa that do not currently permit race-day use of furosemide. The challenge that they will face is balancing the animal-welfare aspect of being able to prevent or reduce the condition against the imperatives for drug-free racing. Additionally, instituting race-day administration of furosemide would be a significant added expense to racing.”

[jrajf]

the usefulness of FTL as well as 2nd Lasix and sometimes 3rd time as a handicapping measure hasnt been relevant to finding prices now that most are aware of the benefit..early on and with certain trainers I know it was masking something else..lets get rid of it and bring the pedigree aspect of "bleeders" back into play

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jrajf

the usefulness of FTL as well as 2nd Lasix and sometimes 3rd time as a handicapping measure hasnt been relevant to finding prices now that most are aware of the benefit..early on and with certain trainers I know it was masking something else..lets get rid of it and bring the pedigree aspect of "bleeders" back into play

See post #42 regarding the myth of "pedigree aspect".

When lasix is discussed, it is the horse - only - that should be considered. Not handicapping. Handicappers will have to work around whatever is decided best for the horse.

Lasix hasn't been able to mask anything via urine dilution for a long time, detection methods are too good for that.