Who owns California?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

remember Lava Man was claimed for 50K.

but he isn't considered a 50K claimer anymore now is he?
Isn't he the winner of like 6 or more GR1's?
Should $50K claimers routinely be able to step up and run competitively in these GR1's in Ca. They do and I have no problem with it. Also I enjoy Lava Mans will to win.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Lava Man is a claimer. AP Arrow was up the track after four third place finishes behind Premium Tap,Invasor,Corinthian and Papi Chullo and a win over Political Force. Big Booster may have found his surface and deserves some credit after closing into slow fractions his last two races.
I'm not contending that this field was good but if you point out that the claimers in the race or the contenders that were beaten by claimers made it a poor field then what does that say about the horses that AP Arrow has been running against? Granted he shipped cross country and ran on an unfamiliar surface.

Any of these horses including every horse in the Suburban could be claimers in their poorest form cycle. Who knows, maybe Big Booster is the best claim since Lava Man. Time will tell.

Deserves some credit? I'll say. He ran the most impressive race of anyone in the field. Coming from where he did on that slow pace was very good.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

He simply doesn't fire at all in those out of state races.It's not the quality of horses that gets him beat.It's either the surface or he likes the warm days/cool nights that we pretty much get year round in L.A. If it was the quality of horses,then they would come face him here(they don't.)Even though Monmouth may be more like what he likes, I wouldn't go. For whatever reason,he just doesn't fire out of SOCAL.

this is the biggest flasehood in my view, the idea that they would come face him. No they wouldn't anymore than Lava Man ships all around the country to race in every big purse. It's costly and risky and not necessary when you can race for big purses in your own back yard.

Why don't you consider the same issues for the horses you say should ship in to race against Lava Man. The SoCal climate is completely different than most other places. Also with respect to HP there is no other cushion track and its well known that you need some experience over it to run well. You are either based in SoCal or not. If you're not then its not likely that you ship out there when you can race closer to home.

So you're saying its much more plausible that he doesn't fire every time he travels? rather than even consider that his talent level is somewhat marginal.

[ArlJim78]

I guess if I'm Mike Mitchell I would now be pointing Big Booster to the Breeders Cup Classic. Sun Boat too for that matter. These are some of the top handicap horses in SoCal.

[miraja2]

People seem to get caught up in arguing about whether all of Lava Man's impressive accomplishments are the result of him being a good horse, or if it is the result of his fairly easy competition.
I believe the answer is.........both.
Lava Man's accomplishments are incredible. Winning the Big Cap and the Gold Cup in the same year is impressive. He has now done that two years in a row.
Last year he won G1s on the turf and dirt. You don't see that very often.
etc. etc.
Based solely on his number of G1 wins, he looks like the horse of the decade. But because of the competition he has faced, and his complete failures when he leaves SoCal, he is certainly not that.
Now, has he faced spectacular competition in those SoCal races? Not at all. But it takes a pretty good horse to show up time after time even to beat the Borregos, Super Frolics, Brother Dereks, and A.P. Xcellents of the sport. Is beating any of those horses very impressive? No. But showing up to beat horses of that caliber consistently over a three-year span IS fairly impressive. In other words, he certainly was handed a great opportunity to rack up some big-time accomplishments, but it takes a pretty good horse to seize that opportunity.
He is not the best horse in the world. He isn't even close. But it hasn't just been Cali with a lack of good horses in the handicap division the last few years. After Lava Man beat Borrego in the 2005 HGC, Borrego went east in the fall and won the JCGC. Look at the last two years. Who did Bernardini beat in the JCGC last year? Who just won the Suburban? etc. etc.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Bailey was saying that Monmouth might indeed be more to his liking but I agree...he can wait for the BC to come to him. Still, since it doesn't appear to be the surface that gets him, you'd think some creative thinking might be in order...maybe van him in segments or go very early so he can acclimate...I don't know, something might work.

They shipped him to Keeneland 3 weeks early for the Breeder's Cup and this was allegedly what he really needed - guess not.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

but he isn't considered a 50K claimer anymore now is he?
Isn't he the winner of like 6 or more GR1's?
Should $50K claimers routinely be able to step up and run competitively in these GR1's in Ca. They do and I have no problem with it. Also I enjoy Lava Mans will to win.

Just reminding that @ one point Lava Man was a claimer..remember Bluesstandard..Heck of a stakes winner also.. You never know what u have in a horse no matter what the cost

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

this is the biggest flasehood in my view, the idea that they would come face him. No they wouldn't anymore than Lava Man ships all around the country to race in every big purse. It's costly and risky and not necessary when you can race for big purses in your own back yard.

Why don't you consider the same issues for the horses you say should ship in to race against Lava Man. The SoCal climate is completely different than most other places. Also with respect to HP there is no other cushion track and its well known that you need some experience over it to run well. You are either based in SoCal or not. If you're not then its not likely that you ship out there when you can race closer to home.

So you're saying its much more plausible that he doesn't fire every time he travels? rather than even consider that his talent level is somewhat marginal.

exactly, so why is it such a bone of contention on lava mans end?? so many want HIM to ship, while seeing no need whatsoever for the 'other side' to do the same.

think back everyone to the last time the bc was held in cali. refresh my memory how the 'east coasters' did that day.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by Danzig

exactly, so why is it such a bone of contention on lava mans end?? so many want HIM to ship, while seeing no need whatsoever for the 'other side' to do the same.

think back everyone to the last time the bc was held in cali. refresh my memory how the 'east coasters' did that day.

exactly, why ship for same money against tougher if you dont need to. Stay home, keep racking up wins and money. He cant be used @ stud, good for racing only.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

exactly, why ship for same money against tougher if you dont need to. Stay home, keep racking up wins and money. He cant be used @ stud, good for racing only.

that's right.

it's all part of the east coast bias, east being considered 'better' than west. but then, many in the east try to include ky--altho it's not east coast, it's central.

if east doesn't have to ship, then why the automatic knock on lava man? why is it felt he must? why is it ok for an east to ship west and lose, but not vice versa?

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

Just reminding that @ one point Lava Man was a claimer..remember Bluesstandard..Heck of a stakes winner also.. You never know what u have in a horse no matter what the cost

John Henry anybody? Claimed for $25K (but inflation since then means it is about even with the Dude's price). Stymie, one of the immortals of the breed, was claimed for $1500!! Brass Hat ran in a Maiden claimer 15K first out. Even Princequillo, the great stayer of the 1940s and a pillar of the breed ran in claimers before his prowess as a stayer was recognized.

Running in a claimer at some point in a horse's career does not mean that horse is garbage forever and ever. He may have an unrecognized problem, a trainer who doesn't understand his particular talents, or been a slow maturing sort who can't compete with the Storm Cats of the breed when they are 2 or 3.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

this is the biggest flasehood in my view, the idea that they would come face him. No they wouldn't anymore than Lava Man ships all around the country to race in every big purse. It's costly and risky and not necessary when you can race for big purses in your own back yard.

Why don't you consider the same issues for the horses you say should ship in to race against Lava Man. The SoCal climate is completely different than most other places. Also with respect to HP there is no other cushion track and its well known that you need some experience over it to run well. You are either based in SoCal or not. If you're not then its not likely that you ship out there when you can race closer to home.

So you're saying its much more plausible that he doesn't fire every time he travels? rather than even consider that his talent level is somewhat marginal.

And why ship all the way to suckcal,oops,SOCAL when all you gotta do is jump in a van and go up and down the east coast.

[Norfolk]

Saturday's Beyers
Lava Man 105
Political Force 105

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

totally disagree, very soft pace set up things well for Lava Man, and gave APX a shot. Any type of honest pace and its another story.

not saying Lava man doesn't have guts, he does. but I sorta look at it like he is the best of a so-so bunch out there.

who were the quality horses in that field?

as bad as the Suburban field was I think it had better quality. no claimers. with a wimpy pace like that fairbanks would have wired that field. 2:00.5 final time in the Suburban versus 2:03 and change in the Gold cup. hmmm.

and people are always totally stumped why Lava Man doesn't win when he travels. it's not that complicated.

the hollywood race field was very average, agree

the suburbon was a crap field, if the gold cup was such an easy spot why run in the suburbon and not the gold cup when he was out there all winter? Because of Lava Man, his figures are very solid in california.

some very good horses have not shipped well but I am sure you knew that.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's right.

it's all part of the east coast bias, east being considered 'better' than west. but then, many in the east try to include ky--altho it's not east coast, it's central.

if east doesn't have to ship, then why the automatic knock on lava man? why is it felt he must? why is it ok for an east to ship west and lose, but not vice versa?

the point I have made over the years, a complete double standard. Its not easy shipping.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kimmeastar

And why ship all the way to suckcal,oops,SOCAL when all you gotta do is jump in a van and go up and down the east coast.

your a troll, and are making completely hypocritical arguments, you knock the horse for not shipping and winning and then saying its irrelevant for east coast horses because its good money and races on the east coast. I hate to break it to you but they ran for 750k yesterday.

Are you this dense, please tell me you are just a troll?

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

your a troll, and are making completely hypocritical arguments, you knock the horse for not shipping and winning and then saying its irrelevant for east coast horses because its good money and races on the east coast. I hate to break it to you but they ran for 750k yesterday.

Are you this dense, please tell me you are just a troll?

Not trolling at all.East coast AND midwest horses ship all over and win all the time.SoCal horses leave the confines of California and lose.All the time.Just look at the derby this year.I Knock the horse because you all act like he is the second coming of Secretariat.He is not!!!! He wins because SoCal racing is SUB PAR!!!!! I would keep him there and win all the time if he was mine,If people are that stupid to give away that kind of money to crap horses,I would stay and clean up too.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kimmeastar

Not trolling at all.East coast AND midwest horses ship all over and win all the time.SoCal horses leave the confines of California and lose.All the time.Just look at the derby this year.I Knock the horse because you all act like he is the second coming of Secretariat.He is not!!!! He wins because SoCal racing is SUB PAR!!!!! I would keep him there and win all the time if he was mine,If people are that stupid to give away that kind of money to crap horses,I would stay and clean up too.

you mean like the horse who won the santa anita oaks and las virgenes winning the Oaks and Belmont....bad racing we know.

[Left Bank]

Give it up dude.You won't ever convince me.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kimmeastar

Give it up dude.You won't ever convince me.

I think a rock could fall out of the sky and you would dispute the Laws of Gravity.