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#41
06-27-2007, 03:27 PM
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I agree with you that it is nice to express differing opinions in a civilized manner. I'm really not sure about your "take" on "illegal aliens". I chose to call them immigrants (it's less disparaging and not racist). You're probably correct that this subject deserves its own thread. In the meanwhile, please read Leviticus 19: 33+34, and also familiarize yourself with how indigenous people, such as the Cherokees, were dealt with by immigrants (self appointed "legal") and th consequences. See also: Trail of Tears, Andrew Jackson. Also, do you think that the people of Iraq consider Americans to be illegal invaders? Just curious. Thanks for your thoughts. Let's keep it civil. Facts on topic, not personal "garbage". 
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#42
06-27-2007, 03:59 PM
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#43
06-27-2007, 04:16 PM
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I do blame lawmakers for not acting on border enforcement and employer sanctions. One of the first requirements for a federal government in my opinion is to secure the borders. If we don't we're increasingly going to discover that the country we are left with is a blend of countries and some day we are going to face a big security threat. I'm one of the people who would like to have already seen increased border control funding to crack down on the back and forth action, separate from the debate on what to do about the illegal that are already in the country. as far as I know we don't need a bill from congress in order to know that the border has to be controlled. i hope this doesn't come to pass but if there ever is a terrorist action on US soil and it's discovered that the perpetrators came across the southern border, you will suddenly see a whole new dimension to border enforcement like you've never seen before. I don't know why you would think that a term like illegal alien is racist. I must admit that I don't see the relevence of the stuff about Cherokee Indians and Leviticus.
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#44
06-27-2007, 04:33 PM
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how is the term illegal alien racist??
immigrants (as others said) are those who enter this country the correct, lawful way, who jump thru all the hoops and spend all the money to become legal u.s. citizens. no sense imo to sugar coat the fact that some choose to come here the easier, cheaper, and illegal way. they are lawbreakers plain and simple. the bs that our fed govt is trying to shove thru as a way to fix immigration is a JOKE. how can anyone justify this amnesty bill to all these people thru the years who went the legal route to citizenship? also, how can we feel safe in this country when our borders seemingly can't be secured?
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#45
06-27-2007, 04:47 PM
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Which is surely a nice message, but the source renders it more than a little irrelevant in this conversation, since Leviticus 19:27 says "you must not cut the hair on the sides of your head or cut the edges of your beard." So now we're sort of in a pickle, eh?
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#46
06-27-2007, 05:13 PM
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I'm really not up on my Leviticus, thanks. of course we shouldn't mistreat people, but we have to toughen up and deal with this matter. so Leviticus even covers how to wear your hair? interesting.
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#47
06-28-2007, 09:42 AM
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I brought up Leviticus to disarm the "Bible thumpers" that have previously used it to justify positions and actions that are inconsistant with its words. I won't get into the "Chistian right's" support of an illegal war, other than to mention in passing something about "Blessed are the peacemakers..." I brought up the Cherokees as an example of people who were forced off of their land and "resettled" by immigrants. But let's go a bit further back in history and see... In 1620 a small boat carrying "religious" people sought shelter from a fierce winter storm. Blown off course, the captain found refuge behind a spit of sand near Provincetown, Mass, (Cape Cod). A landing party sought fresh water and found it in nearby Truro (Pilgrim Springs, still there). They also found food storage that had been put in place by the Wampanogs. The site is now called Corn Hill (also in Truro). Rather than ask permission to have food that had been planted, harvested and stored by others, these upstanding "religious folks" stole the food (and made beer with it), despite the teaching "thou shall not steal". Thoughout the years, the native peoples of this continent have had their land taken, their food (buffallo) stolen, and their culture denegrated by the "immigrants". Now you're probably shaking your head and saying, DTS, what does that have to do with Mexicans coming into OUR country? Oh! Did I say OUR country? Let's consider who really are "immigrants". Now, in current circumstances, should we build bigger and better walls? I don't know. The Great wall, Hadrian's, the one in Berlin, well, they sure were effective, right? Most of the people coming into the US across the southern border are doing so to provide for their families. They are doing work in agriculture, meat packing, construction, etc, that contributes to the growth of the American economy. Many workers send money back "home". Oh, I should have mentioned the "backstretch", as you might be surprised who you find there. Let's face it, ArlJim. We won't be able to round up twelve million people and deport them. If we did, it would have dire consequences on the economy. And think of what it would do to horse racing. The people you call "aliens", as if they jumped off a space ship to invade us, are equally as much "immigrants" as most of the people that live in this country are. I think there's more than enough for everyone here, and like the Wampanogs, rather than react in a negative manner to those that came to their land, they shared. They even taught the newcomers how to plant crops. Then in gratitude, those newcomers decided to throw a grand feast to give thanks. Guess who brought the food to share?
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#48
06-28-2007, 10:02 AM
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Ok....take 17 minutes of your life and watch this video. I'm glad I did.
I'm not going to comment on it, other than immigration can't be shrugged off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ Oh and I guess commondreams doesn't have a dictionary....from merriam-webster here is the definition of alien, doesn't surprise me you throw around "racist" pretty liberally, particularly at a friend of mine that is the farthest thing from the term. b: relating, belonging, or owing allegiance to another country or government :
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#49
06-28-2007, 10:19 AM
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#50
06-28-2007, 10:20 AM
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I didn't post anything from "common dreams". Nor did I accuse anyone of being a racist. It is my opinion that the term should be "immigrant" rather than "alien", but I'd rather not play word games. To anyone that misconstrued my intent, I am NOT saying anyone is a "racist" and hd no intention to offend. Arljim has it right, keep it "civil".
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#51
06-28-2007, 11:22 AM
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No wall, cause walls don't work. Do we even need to bother patroling the border? I guess not because that wouldn't be very nice. If we're going to share with 12 million, we may as well share with the rest of them. Sure come on over and somehow we'll work things out. The problem as I see it is that in effect we are already doing way to much of what you're suggesting, we are way too lax and like I said before our country is morphing into something we can't control. Question, why stop with the southern border? Why don't we extend the sharing to all nations? After all there is plenty here for all. No need for documents after all everyone is just an immigrant of sorts. A country that does not have borders is no longer a country. Having a border means you must know who is coming and going. thats not mean its just a fact. Have you ever tried to get into another country with no documents, claiming just to be a peaceful immigrant wanting to find work and share? try it sometime, any country, and let me know how warmly you are recieved and how tasty was the feast.
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#52
06-28-2007, 11:42 AM
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to compare the mayflower to what's going on now imo is absolutely ludicrous. that's not even comparing apples to oranges
also, while some think we can all sit and sing folk songs while everyone is welcomed into the fold, this is what we call the REAL WORLD, not some utopia where everything that looks so good on paper actually works when theory is put into practice!
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#53
06-28-2007, 11:46 AM
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I think one point that DTS made is that one man's illegal alien is another's pilgrim. There is a quote from Spike in BTVS that I paraphrase here: "You had better weapons, you slaughtered them and took their land, that's what nations do". The point being that when viewed in historical context, our "right" to this land came at the end of a bloody sword and to demonize people who come now in ways we see as "illegal" is, philosophically hypocritical. That's not to say we should open the doors to everybody..we need order and that IS the role of government. Still, the majority of these folks are honest and hardworking folks simply looking for a better life...not unlike our ancestors. We need answers, but pointing at the poor is always an effective strategy for the wealthy and powerful. Both ends of the political spectrum are involved in this mess...the "liberals" who are concerned about the welfare of these poor folks (and their votes) and the wealthy who have economic concerns (read: employ them). We sure don't need walls, we need a fair way of dealing with folks who are here and a coordinated effort with the Mexican government.
__________________
"Always be yourself...unless you suck!"
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#54
06-28-2007, 11:52 AM
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there has to be a way, but it has to be right, and fair to those who are here, to those who want to come (but be realistic, there has to be a limit) without rewarding those who broke the laws getting here, and those who continue to do so after arriving. but it's no more right to say hey, open the doors, everyone welcome, than to say hey there deb, you have plenty of land--we can fit four more houses, you'll just have to get over it.
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#55
06-28-2007, 12:25 PM
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Dare I not toe the party line on this one, but there's a serious problem going on, and to just legalize a bunch of lawbreakers en masse is a ridiculous solution. They're breaking the law now, so what's to say they're going to follow our new law saying they can all be citizens? I'm sure there are plenty of benefits to not being a citizen and getting paid under the table for these people.
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#56
06-28-2007, 12:57 PM
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Yeah, the poor are getting a real deal here...it's all their fault! Unfortunately, the world works very much like it did 400 years ago...violence? Check! Greed? Check! Religious intolerance? Check! What are you saying...that our ancestors had some "god given" right to invade this land, kill the people living here and take their land, but the dastardly poor who ignore our laws and seek a better life are "bad guys"?
__________________
"Always be yourself...unless you suck!"
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#57
06-28-2007, 12:59 PM
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This isn't about demonizing people, its about taking control. we are in agreement on that. I never said that these are lesser people. But all people should be treated equally, and when they're streaming across our border unchecked nobody knows who is hard-working and who is not. Which ones are gang members or criminals? Which ones are terrorists? We don't know because we let it go on unchecked. To me the border abuse needs to stop and then we can deal with the rest, like what to do with those that are here now, and what to do in order to solve the employment/status issue. Dealing with the Mexican Government? really? on this issue? to me that's naive because its in their interest to maintain the staus quo. Its not like they have much power in the matter anyway. The current trend is that drug cartels are calling the shots in the border areas. The second largest source of income in Mexico is income transferred from the illegals in the US. Its second only to oil revenue. In no way do they want to abate the illegal transfer of people across the border. Somer it may be hypocritical, because perhaps our ancestors were also once illegal aliens. So what? That fact doesn't make these folks legal. Like I asked DTS, what should we do, just invite everyone in. No we can't because then we would be overrun. If you think only peaceful hard-working people are coming over you're in a dreamworld. You are correct, our right to govern this land came at the end of a bloody sword. Do you know of another way? If you think about it it's always the one with the powerful sword calling the shots. Its not an option to meekly drop our guard and let everyone in because we feel guilty about how we took over this land. I reject your simple assertion that its only liberals who are concerned about the welfare of these people and its the wealthy who are only concerned with employment. To me that might help you to make it a simple problem with a discernable bad guy, but its not quite that simple. There are rich liberals and there are conservatives that care about human welfare. by the way, regarding the welfare of "these poor folks", what is the issue? I mean with the illegals that are already here? Is there some issue with the quality of life they are enjoying here that wouldn't be 10 times worse in their own country? If it was so bad I don't think they would stay. If it was such a raw deal they wouldn't build tunnels that are almost like expressways under the desert so that people can quickly cross over. No I don't blame these people for creating the problem, that is our own fault and we have been remiss in allowing this to go on. And I truly belive its allowed to go on because of the access to cheap labor and I believe it also gives us a bump in the growth of the economy. Those are benefits we all have enjoyed rich, poor, liberal, conservative. I'm just concerned that this is terribly myopic and unfair and dangerous to the welfare of the US. Its time to face up and pay the piper. We can't bury our heads in the sand any longer.
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#58
06-28-2007, 01:07 PM
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Again all I am asking is what do you feel that means right NOW. What should we do? Because they were greedy and took over this land we should do what? give it back? surrender? what? Its like you are saying we owe a decent life and employment to anyone in the world who wants to live here because of some injustice from years ago. I don't get your point because you said we need to have control, but how do you begin to take control of anything when the border is wide open.
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#59
06-28-2007, 01:15 PM
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Using all encompassing categories to compare the 16th century and the 21st is sophomoric, and you should know it. I suppose I don't feel bound to use my four century removed ancestors as an example of how I should live my life today, four centuries later. If that were the case, I would have my slaves typing this for me because I would be too busy with other things. Because my ancestors may have done something unethical or illegal (did the Native Americans have written laws against this sort of thing? Whose laws were my ancestors breaking? The law of goodwill?) does not disqualify me from being permitted to take the view that our laws should be followed, period, and that we should prosecute illegal aliens. If your father were a murderer, would it make you a hypocrite for thinking that murder is wrong? Methinks not. So the fact that my ancestors were immigrants who took over a country with force does not make me a hypocrite for not wanting people to illegally overrun my country now.
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#60
06-28-2007, 01:32 PM
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Wrong is wrong regardless of one's past, but to understand what is happening, one needs an understanding of history and an understanding of the forces at work here...blaming the poor never does any good. Yes, we need to somehow work with the Mexican government...that's where statesmanship comes in, of course they'd rather see folks leave. No, it's not black and white, liberal and conservative but we know why different types of folks resist meaningful reform. I agree that we need an orderly process and we must fix a clearly broken system...my only dog in this fight is that we won't accomplish that by demonizing the poor! And yes, I have always admitted that I consider all folks my brothers and sisters, we can't fix the world but we can do a lot more. Thinking that we can close our borders and hide from the world's problems is what is naive! Everytime this debate comes up, it focuses on the "criminal aliens" instead of the causes...treat the symptoms while ignoring the disease!
__________________
"Always be yourself...unless you suck!"
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