kip devile 9/2 vs. showing up 6/1

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

No good trainer goes asking clockers how their horse is doing. They know. I remember for the Derby my friend telling me how the clockers didn't even pick up one of Barbaro's works. These clockers are good at what they do, but unless they know what a trainer wants out of the work it is pointless. Also, clockers at belmont see a horse work over the turf one day a week, on Sunday mornings. If it was dirt I would say the clockers know their stuff, but turf works are so rare that no clocker could give an honest opinion on how a horse worked. Showing Up has completely different action on the turf, not the same horse as on the dirt.

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Originally Posted by oracle80

Better give Zito a call and explain to him that hes not a good trainer. Then call Kimmel, call Dutrow, call Frankel, etc. He was a trainer, thats why hes the best. he does understand everything.

I guess he just makes more as a clocker now, right? LOL.

[blackthroatedwind]

It was already stated that he USED to be a trainer...and a very good one at that.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It was already stated that he USED to be a trainer...and a very good one at that.

Why is he now a clocker? Can't be more money in that than being a top trainer?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

First of all, nobody said " clockers ", we are discussing one individual here, and it was simply stated that he is extremely knowledgable.

Secondly, because there is more money on the breeding side, does not make these people more knowledgable about the game.

Originally Posted by oracle80

No, I can assure you he does not know more. As a matter of fact, the clocker I refer to made close to 60 thousand dollars betting Barbaro that day and called him before the race to be the biggest cinch he ever saw in his life off his last work. Its only because he told me that that i used him on top in the trifecta(the 11,500 trifecta). In turn I helped him by telling him to make sure he used Stepp underneath.
I just called him right this minute toask him about the two grass works that he had and he said that they were very good and that he was a very live horse on saturday. I then asked him if off those workouts if he thought the horse compared to English Channel now(you said he was better) and he began to howl and laugh. He asked why i would ask that so I explained. He asked me where I find nuts like that.

60K is a lot of money to me, but to guys like my friend in the breeding game it is pocket change. They are dealing with that type of money, and often a lot more, just on one visit to the shed.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

I am with you Cajun. Maybe it was a personal decision he became a clocker. Who knows, but Showing Up in not going to win this race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Why is he now a clocker? Can't be more money in that than being a top trainer?

Maybe he likes what he's doing. Maybe he isn't only in it for the money. Maybe, like many of us, he hasn't made the best choice for his talents.

Regardless, non of this takes away from his immense knowledge of the game or the great respect he has earned.

Equating money with success is more than just a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here. As usual, he had to start with his calling people idiots.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Maybe he likes what he's doing. Maybe he isn't only in it for the money. Maybe, like many of us, he hasn't made the best choice for his talents.

Regardless, non of this takes away from his immense knowledge of the game or the great respect he has earned.

Equating money with success is more than just a slippery slope.

Sorry, but in horse racing money is success. Not in life, but definitely in horse racing.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here.

You brought up the breeding side of things though... I can definitely see how most of the money is in the breeding shed, but I will tell you this, without the egg, the chicken never hatches. Does that make any sense? Without the racing industry, the breeding doesn't survive. So, in a nut shell, you can't have one without the other.

[blackthroatedwind]

Not necessarily. Many people are in this game for a whole variety of reasons and money is not one of them. Success is a very nebulous concept, and can mean a lot of different things to different people, and believe it or not, how much money one makes is not the measure of success for everybody.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

You brought up the breeding side of things though... I can definitely see how most of the money is in the breeding shed, but I will tell you this, without the egg, the chicken never hatches. Does that make any sense? Without the racing industry, the breeding doesn't survive. So, in a nut shell, you can't have one without the other.

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not necessarily. Many people are in this game for a whole variety of reasons and money is not one of them. Success is a very nebulous concept, and can mean a lot of different things to different people, and believe it or not, how much money one makes is not the measure of success for everybody.

There are purses and stud fees for a reason. They keep million dollar horses alive and send cheap horses off to be slaughtered because of money. Money runs the game.

[Gander]

Yes but lets be real, the majority of the people on this board are gamblers and are in this for the juice. Call it what you want and pretend to be into the breeding but what it comes down to is the juice

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

Perhaps, but if you're comparing individuals, I would say it's a safe bet that Joe knows his stuff as well. Clockers as a general rule of thumb may not know as much, but I think that this guy Joe is more than your average clocker.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

Many of us in this game have high levels of expertise in very differing parts of the game. While using the generic term " clockers " there may be some truth to what you just wrote, but specifics are much more important, and relevent, to this conversation, and there are some, one specifically that comes to my mind, who probably has as good, and likely better, an idea of how a horse will handle the grass in a racing situation that almost anyone on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. Oddly, for that reason, many people on the other side are very interested in his opinions.

There are a lot of trainers who ask me my opinions of their horses, both generally and specifically. I don't presuppose to know anything close to what they know about training, but they also know that I may have a good idea about the relative chances of their horses, and I'm unbiased.

Bold ruler,
I think I speak for many when I say we have tired, to say the least, hearing about your big friends in the breeding game. There isn't a person I have claimed to know or have done work for who i haven't. Not one. And as far as having friends in breeding, you are gona have to go real far to impress me. Knowing these people is part of being in the game. I have a friend who owns quite a presitigious farm in Ky, as in one of the best. I brought him a horse early in 2005 and told him I thought he should go after the breeding rights of this animal befoer anyone knew who he was. he did not. he called me last summer out of the blue after the horse had become "known" to say the least and asked me to go after his breeding rights for him as agent. I was stunned to say the least. I worked very hard with sleepless nights for over a week. I did not and will not disclose the client, the horse we went after, or any details. lets just say the only guy i shared it with was Steve(Kasept) just to see the look on his face when I showed him the offer and how many zeroes it had(steve would never tell anyone anything). Alas, we had the high bid, but the owner changed his mind and decided not to sell the breeding rights at that time.
I guess my point is that that does not make me any better than anyone, or make me anything for that matter. But if you think you are impressing all of us with your friendship with rich folk, think again. I'm quite sure that my breeding friend could pretty much buy and sell anyone you may be referring to unless you are down with tabor or the Arabs. I also know of at least one board member whose close friend could pretty much buy anyone you know, ANYONE!!!!!!!!!
The references to the rich and powerful people you know may not be intended to assert that you have privilege but they are certainly coming off that way. Its definitely not attractive.