Can you really make money in this game ?

I think you can come out ahead. You have to beat the take-out rate (~20%), and be 'better' than about 60% the handicappers out there.

Playing several tracks and betting every race at those tracks is tough. Being selective is important. Make your plays when you feel confident.

Also, don't drink. Consistently beating 60% of the handicappers sounds like a minor challenge, but many of those people are showing up at the track/OTB early in the afternoon, and they start drinking early. This is a near daily event for many of these people, and they generally are addicted to gambling and playing impaired. They are not playing with 'smart' money.

Of course, it is tough to be selective if you only go out to play the horses occasionally. I'm at the track 5-6 days a week, and I play maybe 4-8 races a week - usually at a track I'm familiar with the jockeys, trainers, and track biases.

I work at a track though, so all the races sort of blend together and being selective is fairly easy in that scenario.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Read "Six Secrets of Successful Bettors" from DRF Press. It totally changed my outlook on the game. . .

Six secrets..

1. Know the trainers
2. Know the owners
3. Know the jockeys
4. Know the grooms
5. Know the exercise riders
6. Pick your spots

That's it. I'd love to say otherwise, but unless you've got inside information at the track, you're fighting an unbelievably steep uphill battle.

I'm not saying that you still can't win by just handicapping (or playing numbers like Hooves), but it's ridiculous how many factors are unknowable by reading the race on paper.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think you can come out ahead. You have to beat the take-out rate (~20%), and be 'better' than about 60% the handicappers out there.

Playing several tracks and betting every race at those tracks is tough. Being selective is important. Make your plays when you feel confident.

Also, don't drink. Consistently beating 60% of the handicappers sounds like a minor challenge, but many of those people are showing up at the track/OTB early in the afternoon, and they start drinking early. This is a near daily event for many of these people, and they generally are addicted to gambling and playing impaired. They are not playing with 'smart' money.

Of course, it is tough to be selective if you only go out to play the horses occasionally. I'm at the track 5-6 days a week, and I play maybe 4-8 races a week - usually at a track I'm familiar with the jockeys, trainers, and track biases.

I work at a track though, so all the races sort of blend together and being selective is fairly easy in that scenario.

I have to take exception to this.

The majority of the money in the pools at racetracks is bet by educated players, most of whom are not even at a racetrack, and almost none of these players are drinking.

That's all for now.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I have to take exception to this.

The majority of the money in the pools at racetracks is bet by educated players, most of whom are not even at a racetrack, and almost none of these players are drinking.

That's all for now.

...and your evidence for that would be????

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

...and your evidence for that would be????

Considering the charges in your initial post I would say you are probably the one who should be asked for " evidence ".

I have played seriously for a long time and I'm fairly well acquainted with many other serious players. None of them drink while playing.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Thank you.....I really am an idiot!

Well I've worked at a number of tracks over the past 10 years, and was a horseplayer long before that. I've worked at tracks and OTB's in Virginia, Illinois, Minnesota, West Virginia, Idaho, California and Texas.

The common theme all these tracks and OTB's have are people showing up before noon, starting to drink, and drinking most of the day. They also play darn near every race.

The larger, 'professional' type players do not bet every pool, every race, every track so their money is not everywhere. The sober, astute, and restrained horseplayer is a rarity. You are lucky to know even a few of them.

On the other hand, you can find the drunken addicted gambler at nearly every track and OTB in good sized numbers.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Dude, I'm far from a troll. I merely stated my opinion and tried to have a civil discussion.

Try to be just a little less judgemental, Jesus.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Dude, I'm far from a troll. I merely stated my opinion and tried to have a civil discussion.

Try to be just a little less judgemental, Jesus.

I would say it is your posts in this thread that are pretty judgemental.

You just started posting here. Look around, it's a pretty good place, and there are a lot of posters here who are very knowledgable about racing. I'm sure a number of them will have some things to say about your allegations by morning.

Many of them, in fact, aren't as out of it as I am.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Dude, I'm far from a troll. I merely stated my opinion and tried to have a civil discussion.

Try to be just a little less judgemental, Jesus.

Cut me some slack...i'm drunk and betting Australian racing.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Six secrets..

1. Know the trainers
2. Know the owners
3. Know the jockeys
4. Know the grooms
5. Know the exercise riders
6. Pick your spots

IMO, those might be the six secrets to bankruptcy....as I would love to be able to book the action of those in the first five categories.

The average trainers are about as skilled in the art of handicapping, as the average horseplayers are at training the horses.

There's always exceptions, and I'm sure there are a few trainers who have fully developed handicapping skills--- (Cannon Shell made a very good handicapping read in the Invasor thread) ---however, even of the precious few, they are too focused on their own horses, and their own work, to have the time and energy to do all the needed handicapping work it takes to have the best opinion possible on the competiton they are up against.

I worked for a vetern Kentucky trainer when I was younger....great guy, took good care of his horses, but he was completely lost with all things handicapping. When he told me that to start with, I just thought he was being modest...turns out he wasn't!

The owners, jockies, grooms, and excersize riders are all going to be uninformed about the competition as well---and these folks also, almost always, have severe handicapping deficiencies.

The only time it really helps to have access to any of these people, is when you have a horse who is an unknown quantity in some way, such as a first-time starter, or an import making his United States debut. Also, they can sometimes provide good information on a runner returning from a layoff.

There is no big secret to beating this game IMO. You just need to keep developing your handicapping skills everyday----and do all the tedious work to gain an andvantage over the other bettors. It sometimes means staying up to 3AM, watching old races, and making notes.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I would say it is your posts in this thread that are pretty judgemental.

You just started posting here. Look around, it's a pretty good place, and there are a lot of posters here who are very knowledgable about racing. I'm sure a number of them will have some things to say about your allegations by morning.

Many of them, in fact, aren't as out of it as I am.

Well, then I pre-empatively apologize for my blanket statement on the intoxication level and addicted nature of many horseplayers that I have encountered.

Maybe they are more successful horseplayers than I imagine, but personally if I have two beers my handicapping is crap.

There are a lot of undisciplined players out there would be a more accurate, less inflammatory point. A disciplined player can gain an advantage.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

There are a lot of undisciplined players out there would be a more accurate, less inflammatory point. A disciplined player can gain an advantage.

There certainly are....but unfortunately not enough of them are contributing enough handle to make the game significantly easier. I wish they were.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Cut me some slack...i'm drunk and betting Australian racing.

Well good luck with that endeavor.

I prefer turf racing and rely on breeding quite a bit, so as a North American handicapper I'm nothing but confused trying to play Australia (although I do look for Sinspiel's and Spining World's and may play those horses. Danehill is about the only sire I see regularly that I recognize as a sire I like).

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Well good luck with that endeavor.

I prefer turf racing and rely on breeding quite a bit, so as a North American handicapper I'm nothing but confused trying to play Australia (although I do look for Sinspiel's and Spining World's and may play those horses. Danehill is about the only sire I see regularly that I recognize as a sire I like).

Well I had some good racing luck tonight. Had a 29-1 shot win and hit the exacta for $4. Paid over 400. You can get some crazy prices on good horses down under. I guess it's because the bettors, for the most part, are descendants of pirates and hookers.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Well I had some good racing luck tonight. Had a 29-1 shot win and hit the exacta for $4. Paid over 400. You can get some crazy prices on good horses down under. I guess it's because the bettors, for the most part, are descendants of pirates and hookers.

I don't think you are even playing against the Aussie's. The North American pools go thru Woodbine.

You probably knew that, but sarcasm is tough to determine on a message board.

Nice job on the hit though.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The only time it really helps to have access to any of these people, is when you have a horse who is an unknown quantity in some way, such as a first-time starter, or an import making his United States debut. Also, they can sometimes provide good information on a runner returning from a layoff.

It also helps a lot when there is a class rise or a cut in claiming price. My point is that what you can't definitively read on paper. Nor fitness. And in the average race at the average track, those are often the two biggest factors in determining whether your horse will run well or not.

If you're going to say that KNOWING intention and fitness isn't key, well, I'm just going to have to disagree with you there..

[Holland Hacker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Well, then I pre-empatively apologize for my blanket statement on the intoxication level and addicted nature of many horseplayers that I have encountered.

Maybe they are more successful horseplayers than I imagine, but personally if I have two beers my handicapping is crap.

There are a lot of undisciplined players out there would be a more accurate, less inflammatory point. A disciplined player can gain an advantage.

I accept your apology. I have been playing the races for a long time (> 25 years which is more than 1/2 of my life). I will have a beer or two on occassion when I'm at the track but I prefer not to Imbibe as it will only cloud my judgement, which isn't all that good to begin with.

I agree with BTW, in that most of the money in the pools is not "under the influence." While I agree that there is some money wagered by intoxicated people I think it is far from the majority of the money in the pools. It is rare for me to see "drunks" staggering around placing wagers. Two exceptions I can think of are the Derby and the Preakness, where there is more of a "Spring Break" atmoshpere but even that is limited mostly to the infields.

To respond to the original post about whether or not you can actauly make money in this "game." I think if you are very patient and pick your spots you can. I have not been able to find the self discipline to only play a few races when I go to the track. I will limit my wagers to less than $10 when I don't have a strong feeling, but even that eats into the profitable plays when I am correct. I view it more as a form of entertainment and a viceand if at the end of the day or year I'm ahead better yet!

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I have to take exception to this.

The majority of the money in the pools at racetracks is bet by educated players, most of whom are not even at a racetrack, and almost none of these players are drinking.

That's all for now.

Agree 100%.

The "addicted" gamblers playing "impaired" as Groundhog stated, do not make a dent in the pool.