Q.l.m.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

For this argument about C02 testing to make any sense,he would have to have been caught with high co2 on this particular stakes horse,but don't let me get in the way of your bullsht.Cole Norman would agree with you wholeheartedly.BTW,don't forget Kitchingham was caught with high C02,and admitted he was cheating.So, I wouldn't be so quick to say these guys aren't cheating.Think about the logic here:

This guy Mitchell had a horse test high for C02(again.) It wasn't with this stakes horse.Somehow (in Oracle's head) this stakes win(while being in detention) means he is less likely to be guilty of causing a high C02 level in the horse he was accused of doing it to. If he was ever accused of causing a high co2 in this particular horse that won today,then this thinking might make a thread of sense.

I am no expert in either chemistry or biology. I asked if anyone knew anything about the science. Pgardn would be the guy to ask I suppose.
I'm raising a question, many in fact.
Last year when he went to the monitoring barn I pitched his horses out figuring he would cold, he didn't. Today he runs out of the barn and wins a huge race.
I'm not saying he does or does not do anything. But doesn't it raise some questions?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I am no expert in either chemistry or biology. I asked if anyone knew anything about the science. Pgardn would be the guy to ask I suppose.
I'm raising a question, many in fact.
Last year when he went to the monitoring barn I pitched his horses out figuring he would cold, he didn't. Today he runs out of the barn and wins a huge race.
I'm not saying he does or does not do anything. But doesn't it raise some questions?

This is not some rare test that is new to the medical field.If you go to the E.R. right now with shortness of breath,they would take your blood and perform what is called "Blood Gases" on it.Your total C02 will be reported in the computer.Believe me,when they get a high C02 level on one of these horses,they have control solutions that they can use to make sure the machine is accurate.They can simply test it on another blood gas machine too.37.0 mmol/l is high enough to ensure that a "non-milkshaked" horse will not exceed it.The average horse tests at 30 mmol/l.You may get an odd horse that naturally tests at 34 or so.Horses don't measure at 37mmol/l naturally,but if they were the one freak that did,then they should test that way weeks later while being tested in a detention barn.When they try this ,the horse tests out in the typical range(not 37 or above.)It is important to remember that this is a test for total co2(C02gas+ bicarbonate ions.)When this level goes up,then lactic acid in muscle(during a race) will go into the blood and form a weaker acid called carbonic acid(allowing horses to get less tired-from the lactic acid.) This tests measures whether an alkalizing agent has been added to the horse's blood(how that is done can't be tested for.) Whether it be by a milkshake,or by a supplement that trainers give(which is what some trainers claim) their horses,it is the alkaline blood that is not allowed.So,for instance,with Mitchell,if he isn't milkshaking,then he needs to stop whatever supplement is causing the alkaline blood.The people who test for this do not think supplements cause the high CO2,but the fact is that if it was causing it,then it is still the trainer's responsibility to make sure the blood is not alkaline.Evidently,the horse's who are most aided by the mikshakes are not the top end horses,and that is why you don't see it used much(positives) on stake horses.37 mmol/l is much higher than most horses naturally have,and so trainers will get their horse's natural level tested,and add only enough alkalizing agent that will result in a 33-35mmol/l type range.I think it is important to look at the one guy who didn't lie:

"The racing officials were very kind to me. I got caught playing with fire, and I'll have to reconsider what I was doing. I'm not going to deny it like everybody else who got caught. It's not going to happen again. Unfortunately, because this is a competitive business, you do stuff you've got to do to try to win races." -Adam Kitchingman

He doesn't leave much wiggle room there.."like everybody else" who got caught.He is awfully sure that they were not being falsely accused,and you should think about this when you think a trainer is being falsely accused.I don't think they are bad people.I am not even sure we should be trying to stop the practice of alkalizing horse's blood.To me,horses get hurt when they are tired(not when they are full of run.)That being said,I don't think it is at all difficult to avoid 37 mmol/l total C02.I think they try to push that natural range to 33-35 mmol/l,but sometimes they mess up(a horse gets too dehydrated etc.and a rare 37 pops up on them.)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

This is not some rare test that is new to the medical field.If you go to the E.R. right now with shortness of breath,they would take your blood and perform what is called "Blood Gases" on it.Your total C02 will be reported in the computer.Believe me,when they get a high C02 level on one of these horses,they have control solutions that they can use to make sure the machine is accurate.They can simply test it on another blood gas machine too.37.0 mmol/l is high enough to ensure that a "non-milkshaked" horse will not exceed it.The average horse tests at 30 mmol/l.You may get an odd horse that naturally tests at 34 or so.Horses don't measure at 37mmol/l naturally,but if they were the one freak that did,then they should test that way weeks later while being tested in a detention barn.When they try this ,the horse tests out in the typical range(not 37 or above.)It is important to remember that this is a test for total co2(C02gas+ bicarbonate ions.)When this level goes up,then lactic acid in muscle(during a race) will go into the blood and form a weaker acid called carbonic acid(allowing horses to get less tired-from the lactic acid.) This tests measures whether an alkalizing agent has been added to the horse's blood(how that is done can't be tested for.) Whether it be by a milkshake,or by a supplement that trainers give(which is what some trainers claim) their horses,it is the alkaline blood that is not allowed.So,for instance,with Mitchell,if he isn't milkshaking,then he needs to stop whatever supplement is causing the alkaline blood.The people who test for this do not think supplements cause the high CO2,but the fact is that if it was causing it,then it is still the trainer's responsibility to make sure the blood is not alkaline.Evidently,the horse's who are most aided by the mikshakes are not the top end horses,and that is why you don't see it used much(positives) on stake horses.37 mmol/l is much higher than most horses naturally have,and so trainers will get their horse's natural level tested,and add only enough alkalizing agent that will result in a 33-35mmol/l type range.I think it is important to look at the one guy who didn't lie:

"The racing officials were very kind to me. I got caught playing with fire, and I'll have to reconsider what I was doing. I'm not going to deny it like everybody else who got caught. It's not going to happen again. Unfortunately, because this is a competitive business, you do stuff you've got to do to try to win races." -Adam Kitchingman

He doesn't leave much wiggle room there.."like everybody else" who got caught.He is awfully sure that they were not being falsely accused,and you should think about this when you think a trainer is being falsely accused.I don't think they are bad people.I am not even sure we should be trying to stop the practice of alkalizing horse's blood.To me,horses get hurt when they are tired(not when they are full of run.)That being said,I don't think it is at all difficult to avoid 37 mmol/l total C02.I think they try to push that natural range to 33-35 mmol/l,but sometimes they mess up(a horse gets too dehydrated etc.and a rare 37 pops up on them.)

they say you learn something every day, i guess today is one of those days.

is it a possibility that someone would 'aid' a horse so as to make them look more palatable next time out in a claiming race?