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#21
10-27-2006, 09:47 AM
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Eric
Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes. There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record. 
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#22
10-27-2006, 09:56 AM
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We all want bigger fields and horses to race longer and more often. Drugs is an important aspect of this, Each state names and limits the drugs. This is the problem. We all look for excuses for us loosing at the windows and cheating trainers and owners is one of them. I dont have the answer but the another problem is the "perforance inhancing" term we use. If the drug "inhances " the health of a horse this is the bottom line. We all say we are for whats best for the horse. How many of you have asthma? Wouldnt life be a "bitch " without your inhaler. Imaintain the drug polices should be concerned about the horses health . If it aids them in running then so be it. Maybee im to trusting but I think we lose sight of the game and worry too much about the gambling.
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#23
10-27-2006, 10:15 AM
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I am not trivializing this either. However, I think there is another problem here. Let's not name names here but I think when trainer X, Y, or Z -- and the trainer is one of these super-trainers, high % trainers, who is known for moving up horses, is the target of all the rumors and speculation, or one of the so called "drug trainers", etc. -- when one of these trainers comes up with a clenbuterol positive I think people look to hang them for it. Why? That's the dynamic of human nature. Because they can't hang them for the "other thing" -- the "thing" that they haven't been caught at -- not yet at least. That is the "thing" that everyone thinks and knows in their heart they are guilty of. Well, personally, and this is JMVHO, I don't embrace that mindset. Now I am not defending these people -- hell, I have to race against them just like everyone else. But I just don't think you can convict a person, condemn them, ban them for life, etc. -- for something they haven't been caught doing. Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I do see that there. It's kind of like Al Capone movie -- they could not catch or convict him of any of the real crimes that everyone knew he was gulity of. So what do they get him on -- tax evasion. Eric
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#25
10-27-2006, 10:38 AM
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If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.
The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.
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#26
10-27-2006, 10:43 AM
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#27
10-27-2006, 10:46 AM
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It is too easy to get a Clen positive to have fines like that. In most cases the Clen is an honest mistake. In a large barn it is very easy to get a horse lost in the shuffle and over medicate them, especially when its given by assistant trainers and grooms. Im not sure if you realize this, but usually clen is given by a trainers assistant, not a vet, not a vets assistant. They leave you the clen, and expect it to be handled properly. It would be impossible for X trainer to treat 250 horses with clen, that is where the mistakes come in, and that is where the overages manifest. Do you think a trainer should have a million dollar fine because of an honest mistake made by someone with a 5th grade education, making 300 dollars per week? I dont. I understand a Clen positive, I do not understand any caine positive, its not possible to make that mistake because they are Iv drugs.
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#28
10-27-2006, 10:51 AM
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Nor do I have any idea about the training methods of Scott Lake... i agree with you that a horse will 'crash' when taken off this drug...much like humans do. I also believe that it is a wonderful product when used for its intended purpose...it allowed a 'heavy' old pony that i knew to live quite comfortably in his final years, and we gave it all the time to yearlings when they developed coughs or mucous after shipping to a sale. As you said in your initial post there is no excuse for a clen overage. Either the horse is sick and doesn't run until it finishes the medication and subsequent withdrawl time. OR it isn't...and then the trainer has to deal with the consequence.
__________________
 Seek respect, not attention.
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#29
10-27-2006, 10:56 AM
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I own horses. I know mistakes happen. But let's be honest here, positives can be avoided. And if it cost the trainer more, than more attention would be paid to the medications given to horses. The real issue here in my mind is exactly stated at the top of the thread. Any horse who wins and tests positive stole money from the patrons/bettors.
This game is struggling enough to need slots in most states to keep it running. This is not the heyday of horseracing. The sport needs to do everything in its power to not alienate the fans. I think most of us take the ups and downs and grey areas of racing as the way it works. But the occasional patron/bettor may never bet again if a horse who beat him is positive. He/she would say it is fixed. There is enough shady things that go on a a track (fixes, incorrectly reported workouts, running horses into shape, etc...) to not tackle one that can be easily monitored and avoided. If you are a trainer who is so sloppy as to not care about a huge fine, then pay it. Otherwise, pay more attention to the medications given to your horses or be out of the game. There is no shortage of owners or aspiring trainers.
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#30
10-27-2006, 10:59 AM
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I think its the trainers fault on any positive, especially when you give it yourself. However I do understand how a Clen positive comes about.
Horses do crash off of it. My basic argument is the general incompetence of trainers and their help. Its sickening to see how some big outfits operate, ridiculous infact. Guys couldnt work at a burger stand yet they are dealing with millions of dollars in bloodstock. For sure there is no other place in the world where someone who speaks no english, and makes 12k a year handles millions of dollars in investments. Its insane.
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#31
10-27-2006, 11:02 AM
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I had a trainer once tell me..."ah, this is the horse business, its a different kind of business" To that my answer was BULL****, business is business. There is no difference, the only difference is trainers (Employees) arent qualified to run a business.
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#32
10-27-2006, 11:24 AM
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If the racing fan were serious about cleaning up the game then surely the first place to start would be complaining to race management to get the grounds security to actually do some work and boot out the degenerates who come to the track and bet $1 exacta boxes with their welfare check and get on their soapbox about what's wrong with the game when their $6 will pay doesn't come through. Quote:
It's difficult to impose these strict fines and suspensions when the testing isn't fullproof and EPO testing isn't in the equation.
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#33
10-27-2006, 12:26 PM
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#34
10-27-2006, 12:44 PM
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The fact that these types of people are the backbone of the sport shows the hypocrisy of those who cry for stiffer punishments for positive tests. They can't afford to be at the track but they're pretty much allowed to act like fools as long as they spend money. Quote:
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#35
10-27-2006, 01:23 PM
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PP-
Here's the thing. Without patrons, there is no horseracing for the average joe owner to get squeezed out of. So, either get the so-called non-performance enhancing substances off the list or monitor all drug administration closer. I actually think the percentage of out right cheating trainers is very low. I think the percentage who put careful administration of drugs high on their list of things to do is also very low. In any event, the game needs to be cleaned up a bit and the current penalties give trainers almost no reason to do it themselves. -TF Last edited by paisjpq : 10-27-2006 at 05:08 PM.
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#36
10-27-2006, 01:37 PM
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__________________
http://www.facebook.com/cajungator26
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#37
10-27-2006, 05:15 PM
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What I find interesting is that the harness business has made a lot more progress than the thoroughbred business. Look at what NJ did with the recent people they caught. Monster fines, 10 year suspensions, potential lifetime suspensions -- and this is not the first time they've done it. They did it years ago as well. Have they totally cleaned up the game? No of course not.
However, on the other side of the coin, I do think there is a bit of the "martyr" element here. It's not all the time but it's there some of the time. People who often cannot compete look to blame others instead of themselves. Now I am not saying that is a major part of it, but I will say this -- I am not going to name names (so don't bother asking), however, I have a trainer in NY who has trained several horses for us over the course of the past 5 years or so. The vet bills with this trainer are minimal compared to other trainers we've used. They are minimal compared to friends of mine who have horses with other trainers. . Now this is a high-percentage trainer who shoots really well. Very strong. But -- he races his horses where they can win. He is very aggressive when placing his horses. He gives his horses the time needed and doesn't push the envelope in racing or over-racing them. And when a horse can't cut it or isn't competitive, he tells us so and tells us it's time to move on. There are trainers in this business who produce results and don't rely on the vet to be the major contributory factor in producing those results. Eric
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#38
10-28-2006, 01:04 PM
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It's pretty obvious that some trainers are "stretching the rules" as far as they possibly can.
I can buy the fact that one trainer might have a great streak, or even has a knack for claiming horses, like Frankel used to back in the day, and be 30% or so first off the claim. I cannot buy the fact that there are 2-3 of these 30-50% first off claiming trainers at almost every racetrack today. To me, that statistic by itself is the most obvious in finding who the most likely "rule stretchers" are. Now some people will say they are just better trainers, read the condition books better, and train for more aggressive owners who aren't afraid to lose their horses via a lower claiming price. That is believable to me and I can buy it to a point. Where my suspicion starts to arise again is when I see many of the old school trainers struggle today. These are the trainers who for a VERY long time were successful and seemed to have an idea of how to train consistent winners. Now they can barely hit the board, even though they still get quality stock. Why is this happening?? Are these trainers getting old, maybe. Did they forget how to train, I doubt it. Are they less likely to "stretch the rules" and/or put their owners and the owners property in compromising positions, IMO, absolutely.
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#39
10-28-2006, 01:22 PM
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i'd imagine a lot of positives are due to trainers giving meds at the absolute last moment to get a horse 'clean' by race time, and of course not all horses metabolize at the same rate, so sometimes they pop positive.
any meds that aren't truly performance enhancing or masking drugs really shouldn't be lumped into the same category as those that are. lasix is given for no reason, at it was always percieved to be an enhancer, so no one wants to run without--that's crazy. there needs to be a national governing body, they need to go over all medications, and their rules. lasix and all other drugs should not be handed out like candy to these horses--or better yet, they should all be illegal. wow, now wouldn't that get rid of a lot of unsound horses, and their offspring?! that would leave only those hardy enough, and deserving, to run and carry on the breed. lol never happen. if people think poly is the anti-christ, just think if meds were cut off.
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#40
10-28-2006, 05:50 PM
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