BC Sprint Purse Being Withheld

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Wow. Over the last 30 some odd years (out here) this has been our cleanest trainer. He'd rather lose than win the wrong way. Always been too conservative for many owners' taste.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Like what? What more is at play? Say specifically. You can chide Ellis for taking a chance with a compounded steroid that's not as consistent as the steroid era commercial products (Winstrol, Equipoise, etc.) were and for choosing to run after the discussions with CHRB, but that's about it. He and everything that went on leading up to Cup were well known by the parties involved starting with the record of Masochistic getting a stanozolol injection days after the Pat O'Brien.

The recriminations should be directed towards the governing bodies, no? Everyone was aware of a potential problem weeks out and handled it poorly. They had a trace positive 22 days out and everyone took a wait and see. Then 8 days out they still have it but don't tell Ellis until 3 days out when he can't get a test turned around. Then the entry is accepted and dice rolled. If you're doing out of competition testing, USE IT PROACTIVELY. Horse can't enter.

Separately, I know it's important at Pace Advantage to be a cool kid and **** on everything and everyone involved in the sport, but that doesn't play here. Andy doesn't know Ellis at all as stated above and I know him from having him on radio maybe twice a year. I think I've shaken his hand twice. His reputation is pristine and it's completely understandable that a trainer wouldn't care to reveal what their operation does when attempting to improve a claimed horse. Why would they and alert other outfits to things they may be overlooking in their training?

As for criticism of Jay Privman writing a factually accurate spot news article, I've never seen anything so bizarre. And as for me, ATR coverage of the story was instantaneous and thorough featuring Ellis on all aspects of the circumstances, Dr. Steven Allday, the leading practicing veterinarian in the sport on stanozolol and its' properties and attorney Alan Foreman of RMTC, ARCI, Maryland Jockey Club and Thoroughbred Horseman's Association on the regulatory aspects.

But you didn't listen to any of those segments, did you? I'll summarize their appearances. Ellis is embarrassed and would have handled things differently knowing what he knows now about the steroid in question. Allday criticized him for playing with fire with an unstable metabolic. Foreman said testing continues to be stringent and effective down now to the picogram and the protocols for steroids have effectively eliminated them from the game. If operations want to use them the way Ellis did twice this year between layoffs or on the farm bring horses back from injury, etc., they better be sure the product is out of the horses' system before running. In other words, though the entry management was handled badly, the testing system worked.

Going forward there's execution elements that can be addressed out of this incident which is a good thing. If you're going to out of competition test, put it to use and refuse entry to avoid a problem. Of course it's more important to feign outrage and attack anyone involved in any way rather than understand the hows and whys and potential for improvement.

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Appreciate you listening, your viewpoint and the kind wishes. There's a bunch of moving parts to this and those in position to prevent the unnecessary and embarrassing incident (Ellis through BC) failed.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Where's the apology to me?

[cmorioles]

Ellis tried to play by the rules though he made a dumb decision at the end.

That said, the rules have to change. Here is a guy skipping G1s where he'd be favored to instead put his horse on steroids. This isn't some sick or injured horse making a comeback. It was a horse in training that had just easily won a race. It was planned AHEAD of time.

If he truly can't race without that, I think racing could survive with horses like him not having three starts a year. Also, I'll add, this isn't a Masochistic thing. Ellis does this rather routinely with horses (male and female) right after starts. It isn't too hard to figure out looking at the vet lists.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Where's the apology to me?

I apologize for crediting you with a friend that is not a friend!

Still surprised that your initial reaction was to defend Ellis. Out of character for you since your usual inclination is to look out for the bettor. I think we all agree the bettor was kept in the dark here. I agree that CHRB deserve much scorn but Ellis deserves some also.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ug-disclosures

This article from a March CHRB meeting is worth a second look in light of what has happened. The issue raised is sharing vet records with claiming trainers. Ellis is VERY vocal in his displeasure with the thought of turning over any information.



I'm sure he's a nice guy and friendly with Byk and Privman and Serling but it's no stretch to say there might be more at play here.

Ok Joe Drape..

What do you think Privman/Byk/Serling are on the Ellis payroll? Steve had Allday on for 30 minutes who basically called the decision to use a banned drug irresponsible. Guess Steve's stipend will be a bag of coal this Christmas.
You figure Privman is devoid of journalist integrity because he didnt throw the book at him in a NON Editorial piece. Who knows what Privman's opinion on the matter is its not his job to write what he thinks only what he knows.
Serling is no lover of cheaters have you ever read a tweet or post that suggested such? I read a lot of ...were did that race come from, WHATEVER, and other reasonable challenges to new barns miracle improvements. Now because NYRA hired a well spoken intelligent trainer to share some knowledge with viewers you figure Serling is part of the conspiracy to defraud bettors?

The whole article you posted boils down to competent trainers not wanting to offer free education to the people they compete against right? I wouldnt want to teach someone for free either

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Ok Joe Drape..

What do you think Privman/Byk/Serling are on the Ellis payroll? Steve had Allday on for 30 minutes who basically called the decision to use a banned drug irresponsible. Guess Steve's stipend will be a bag of coal this Christmas.
You figure Privman is devoid of journalist integrity because he didnt throw the book at him in a NON Editorial piece. Who knows what Privman's opinion on the matter is its not his job to write what he thinks only what he knows.
Serling is no lover of cheaters have you ever read a tweet or post that suggested such? I read a lot of ...were did that race come from, WHATEVER, and other reasonable challenges to new barns miracle improvements. Now because NYRA hired a well spoken intelligent trainer to share some knowledge with viewers you figure Serling is part of the conspiracy to defraud bettors?

The whole article you posted boils down to competent trainers not wanting to offer free education to the people they compete against right? I wouldnt want to teach someone for free either

I'll be able to follow up more later but I want to make clear: I am a much better writer than Joe Drape.

[Benny]

Wins Often Followed 2016 Steroid Treatments in California
By Frank Angst

While it’s a small sample size, horses reported to receive steroid administrations in 2016 in California who have come back to race fared very well in their first starts after those treatments, winning at about three times the normal rate.

Looking at the reported anabolic steroid administrations in 2016 in California, 16 times horses have raced after receiving one of those treatments (through Dec. 29). In the first start after one of those treatments those horses won six times, a 37.5% win rate. For 2015—the most recent full year available—the average win rate for all horses in California was 13.5%.

Three other times in those initial starts after a steroid treatment, horses earned placings. Combined with the wins, that’s a 56.2% placing rate, also well above the norm of 40.5%. (The 56.2% counts Masochistic’s runner-up finish in the TwinSpires Breeders’ Cup Sprint (G1), although he has since been disqualified to last.)

While it’s a small sample size, the 37.5% win rate and 56.2% placing rate are particularly impressive considering that steroid administrations are called for when a horse is debilitated, anorexic, or anemic.

The average number of days between these 16 administrations and the first start after a treatment was 99 days. Horses who receive a reported steroid administration in California must wait at least 60 days before returning to racing.

In California in 2016 there were 44 reported anabolic steroid administrations to 35 Thoroughbreds by 15 trainers. All were placed on the vet's list. Anabolic steroid administrations can be identified as they are the only treatments for Thoroughbreds listed as: “medication-60 days.”

Of those 35 horses who received at least one steroid administration reported to the California Horse Racing Board, 16 have come back to race, 14 are eligible to return but have not yet started, and five received the steroid administration in the past 60 days (through Dec. 29) and are currently ineligible to race.

Of course the interest in the administrations was sparked by Masochistic’s positive for the synthetic anabolic steroid stanozolol following his runner-up finish in the Breeders’ Cup Sprint. The race came 68 days after a reported Aug. 29 stanozolol treatment. It was the third time in 2016 that Masochistic received a steroid treatment.

The California Horse Racing Board publicly reports its vet’s list, but interestingly enough, none of the three times Masochistic was placed on the vet’s list in 2016 for anabolic steroid treatments is listed on the publicly posted information at the CHRB’s web site. Masochistic is the most accomplished horse in 2016 to have a reported anabolic steroid treatment in California and his three reported treatments are tied for most in the state.

Observing this inconsistency on Dec. 30 I requested access to the full list of reported anabolic steroid treatments in 2016 in California and CHRB spokesman Mike Marten quickly responded with access to an InCompass program to generate the full list. Marten said the publicly available vet’s list on the CHRB site is not as advanced as the InCompass program he provided.

Masochistic is trained by Ron Ellis, who accounted for seven of the 44 reported steroid administrations in California in 2016 through Dec. 29. For the full list of 2016 anabolic steroid treatments reported to the CHRB, click here.

[10 pnt move up]

Barn tips have been replaced by steroid injection lists.....this game

[philcski]

Good article by my man Frank as always, but I would like to see it broken down by off odds as well.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by philcski

Good article by my man Frank as always, but I would like to see it broken down by off odds as well.

With all due respect to Frank whom I like and think highly of, it's yet the latest disingenuous BH propaganda piece. It's a mash-up of half truths and distortions of information and statistically insignificant results derived from.. wait for it.. the legal administration and reporting of medications.

Here's an added layer of info, the Thoro-Graph sheets of the 15 horses (Link in TG forum post): https://www.thorograph.com/phorum/re...845#msg-105845

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

With all due respect to Frank whom I like and think highly of, it's yet the latest disingenuous BH propaganda piece. It's a mash-up of half truths and distortions of information and statistically insignificant results derived from.. wait for it.. the legal administration and reporting of medications.

Here's an added layer of info, the Thoro-Graph sheets of the 15 horses: https://www.thorograph.com/phorum/file.php?1,file=212

Have a heart..Just say these guys are loading up their claims and runners with ROIDS and then running them within the the boundaries of said rules LEGALLY.. Its sorry to suggest these beasts are being HELPED and CARED for out of the goodness of man kind.. Geez man call a spade a spade or say nothing

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Kasept

With all due respect to Frank whom I like and think highly of, it's yet the latest disingenuous BH propaganda piece. It's a mash-up of half truths and distortions of information and statistically insignificant results derived from.. wait for it.. the legal administration and reporting of medications.

Here's an added layer of info, the Thoro-Graph sheets of the 15 horses: https://www.thorograph.com/phorum/file.php?1,file=212

Download doesn't work directly but for anyone wanting to view the sheets, it's under the thread "CA Steroids". As I suspected, the horses are not running out of their skin, but rather maintaining form, most likely pairing their last. Looking at these without knowing they were on a steroid list no one would blink an eye.

I don't think it's a hit piece, it's reporting the statistics- which do stand out as abnormal, however the ROI/off odds are important to color the picture.