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#1
10-14-2006, 06:33 AM
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There's also a difference between success at stud as "fashionable" and success at stud unfashionably..
Pleasant Tap is a 'success' if anyone is willing to let the progeny ripen. Through '04, Tap's stats yield 74% runners, 49% winners and 8% stakes winners. At $10,000 a clip, he's the greatest bargain in breeding.. Turf.. Dirt.. routes.. sprints.. Tap Dance City, Tap the Admiral (RIP), PT's Grey Eagle, Pleasant Breeze, Tap to Music.. And he get's his get from ordinary mares. But the breeding industry is precocious crazy and care little about soundness and longevity, so Pleasant Tap is a "failure" at stud.. Myopic..
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#2
10-14-2006, 06:38 AM
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Big difference between commerical failure and failure in general. Most start at such a high stud fee that the expectations are insane to begin with.
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#3
10-14-2006, 06:56 AM
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Louisborg, Victorious Ami, Separato, Red Lifesaver, Rousing Victory. Now that being said....I think BB is correct to say that Victory Gallop has not been a real big success as a sire. Being a sire of decent claimers and the occasional small stakes winner is fine, but as Oracle suggests, it isn't exactly what most people hope for when they send a champion like VG to the shed. The list on the whole I think is rather good, but I have to take some issue with Affirmed. The Tin Man Flawlessly Affirmed Success Quiet Resolve Affluent Zoman Peteski Those were all MULTIPLE G1 winners by Affirmed which makes me wonder just how many MULTIPLE G1 winners you need to sire before you are no longer considered a failure. Add those names to his long list of other graded stakes winners and his success as a broodmare sire.....and I think calling him a failure is a tad inaccurate.
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#4
10-14-2006, 07:58 AM
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I opened my 2006 stallion register, which is complete to the end of October,2005. Victory Gallop had at that time three crops of racing age, the oldest being 4; from 192 named foals, he had 67% runners (only 11 of 54 2yos), 49% winners (5 of those 11 2yos) and 10 SWs (0 2yo). Obviously, he isn't a sire of early maturing stock. If you consider only his 3 and 4yos, he had 80% runners, 65% winners from foals, and 7% SWs, which are not bad numbers for a very young stud career. No homeruns yet, just a lot of steady singles and doubles.
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#5
10-14-2006, 12:24 PM
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Where are his successful sons at stud? Which of his daughters have been successful broodmares? Sorry ... Affirmed was a failure as a stallion.
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#6
10-14-2006, 12:33 PM
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#7
10-14-2006, 09:41 PM
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But how many of those other horses on your list sired seven multiple-G1 winners like Affirmed? There simply are not that many multiple-G1 winners out there, and I just don't feel that designating a horse that sires seven of them as a "failure" is exactly fair. And it isn't like those were his only good runners either. He also sired graded stakes winniners Charley Barley, Buy the Firm, Mossflower, One From Heaven, I Thee Wed, etc. You seem to be saying that there are ONLY two options for a sire: 1) Establishes a dominant male sire line. 2) Failure. To me it is a bit more complicated than that. A horse that sires a considerable number of graded stakes winners is.....to me..... NOT a failure.
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#8
10-14-2006, 12:21 PM
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... it's the emotional reaction that counts.
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#9
10-14-2006, 08:01 PM
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just dont have a problem betting a VGallop horse. they seem to be runners and competitive. Repent
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#10
10-13-2006, 11:50 PM
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Not very impressed Bold!
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#11
10-13-2006, 11:55 PM
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yeah,
HBull has proved to be a useful sire. and Im not talking about Giacomo and Macho Uno b/c, although Grade 1 winners, those are just 2 horses out of hundreds. HBull's do well on turf when stretched out. maybe they are just high leveled claimers, but they are still runners. a failure at stud is a horse that cant get his horses to the track or a stud who simply does not produce winners. thats not the case for those that I mentioned. Repent
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#12
10-14-2006, 11:56 AM
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None of their names will likely appear as the male progenitor of future champions.
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#13
10-13-2006, 11:56 PM
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Victory Gallop A Failure ?
I think Victory Gallop has had several Graded Stakes Winner's, so, I am not sure I would call that a failure.
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#14
10-14-2006, 12:02 AM
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and its even more than that. stakes races and stakes runners are such a small percentage of thoroughbred racing. I handicap VGallop runners at Calder, Colonial, Beulah, Belmont, Inner Aqueduct, Outer Aqueduct, Arlignton, Fairmont, Emerald, ..................wherever and they win at every level(claiming, allowance, overnight stakes, graded stakes). his horses look terrible a lot of times. but they can run and they are competitive. that makes him an excellent sire in my book. he is like a poor man's Marias Mon. marias mon is my favorite sre b/c they win everywhere. sprint, route, dirt, turf, off track, whatever..........they are runners. Repent
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#15
10-14-2006, 12:10 AM
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Conquistador Cielo-
You see a lot of his offspring out in Cali. They seem to be allright, especialy in sprint ranks. Repent brings up a good point about horses even getting to the track... If the Sire is producing what appear to be freakishly talented runners, but that are also freakishly injury prone, is that considered successful? How would you brand Fu Peg so far based on this point?
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#16
10-14-2006, 12:10 AM
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Sire: Victory Gallop
Thanks, Repent ! This is probably one of my all time favorite horses and I always follow his progeny and have won a lot of money on these youngsters. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
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#17
10-14-2006, 12:17 AM
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its the whole triple crown lunacy that blinds so many fans. Im not saying thats what BB was doing, but its the most overemphasized part of the game. Vgallop performed well in the triple crown races. so ppl want to see his horses do well in the triple crown races and consider him a disappointment when they do not. its BS. same for Free House. he was a very good California sire when he was alive. so what if they did not run in triple crown races. its just 3 races, and to be honest, the Preakness and Belmont are 2 of the softer Grade 1 races around at this point. the Haskell and Travers almost always come up tougher as far as 3Yo Grade 1 races are concerned. Repent
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#18
10-14-2006, 12:15 PM
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... not by the number of bets you cash on claiming and allowance races. Sires of Runners: There is a statistic called the Lifetime Average Earnings Index (Lifetime AEI) ... which provides a good measure of success as a sire of runners. Only stallions with Lifetime AEI's above 3.00 are generally considered to be successful sires of runners. I don't have that figure for all of the stallions I cited ... but I doubt if any of them are anywhere near 3.00. Also important is the percentage of stakes winners ... which should be above 10% ... and as high as 15% or more for the great stallions. None of the stallions I cited comes close to those figures. Sires of Sires: This becomes evident when a stallions sons go to stud. It's a bit early for some of the more recent horses on my list ... but it's highly doubtful that any of them will produce one or more sons who are success at stud. Broodmare Sires: Same as Sires of Sires ... but on the female side.
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#19
10-14-2006, 11:49 AM
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#20
10-14-2006, 12:01 PM
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It's extremely rare for a stallion's offspring to get better as he gets older ... so it's very, very unlikely that Victory Gallop will ever produce a series of G1 or other graded stakes winners ... nor that any of his sons will become successful stallions.
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