Was Masochistic stiffed in his debut?

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dennis Manning did it with a maiden a few years ago at GP. Had a few nonsense workouts from a Ocala training center, opened up short, stayed that way and galloped.

Remember it well. Grand Hombre working three very slow half miles in 52 at Classic Mile. 30-1 ml , goes off at 14-1 with Edgar Prado and goes 1:08 n change . Later selling him to Darley for some sick change...

[Danzig]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...derby-day-race

[Calzone Lord]

The definition of nobbling:

tr.v. nob·bled, nob·bling, nob·bles Chiefly British
1. To disable (a racehorse), especially by drugging.
2. To win (a person) over.
3. To outdo or get the better of by devious means.
4. To filch or steal.
5. To kidnap.

I'd like to see A. C. Avila asked about Tornado Allie's first two career starts.

She certainly has the look of a horse who could have been the victim of nobbling:

In her first two starts, she ran BRIS speed figures of -2 and 28. She ran Beyer figures of -0 and -0 in those first two starts.

In both races, she showed no speed at all and still tired throughout. Who bets a horse at 12/1 odds, off of two -0 Beyers, in Southern California?

You're not supposed to see nobbling anymore. In this era, the purses are way too large to justify it. It really should never happen, and especially never happen at bigger circuits.

One of my fathers bigger betting scores came that way. He nobbled a horse named Nat's Thunder with reserpine in a race at Commodore Downs, and brought him back to win a race on a Saturday at Thistle Downs in the summer. He says he profited over 20k betting the race by catching the exacta. In those days, Thistle Downs handled well and was a far more respectable track than it is today. Antonio Graell rode there at the time, and he used him when he could get him. But, he'd bring in a Commodore jockey if he was trying to cash a bet.

[my miss storm cat]

They have balls. Good for them.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/...?#article-copy

Frankham said the entire episode with Masochistic has soured him on the game.

“It’s one of the disgusting parts of this game,” he said. “That’s why we’re not going to be in a race with A.C. Avila in it. I felt in principal, we had to step out of that race. He defrauded the bettors who bet on that race, and yet, no one got their money back. If there is no light put on this, it will be another wink wink scandal. If this were the United Kingdom or Asia, A.C. Avila would be banned for life. I Iove this sport, and it’s with a heavy heart that I get into this situation and fight this. I don’t want to take down the sport, but people work hard to get their horses ready for a race, and it’s not fair to them. We need to make changes, and the state needs to act in a more timely manner with its investigations. We can’t have egregious cheaters like this allowed to continue to race 4½ months later.”

[Kitan]

Not the first time Avila has "magically" turned a horse around.

http://pic.twitter.com/oquEfNBali

[Bigsmc]

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53846

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

They have balls. Good for them

Oh yes.. They're so noble with their grandstanding.

As Jay Privman tweeted, 'Not defending what's gone on with Masochistic, but I remember when Shoemaker & Charlie Whittingham would operate similarly and no one ever questioned them.'

And of course like every other wrong-headed notion about International racing, no one is getting 'banned for life' for setting up scores. Obviously they weren't following Barney Curley's exploits last year. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=curley

[Danzig]

everyone says they want to clean up the sport...and then when something happens, there are shrugs.
deeds, not words.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Cardus

How does Privman's Twitter remark relate to these two owners?

Didn't know it was required to..

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Oh yes.. They're so noble with their grandstanding.

As Jay Privman tweeted, 'Not defending what's gone on with Masochistic, but I remember when Shoemaker & Charlie Whittingham would operate similarly and no one ever questioned them.'

And of course like every other wrong-headed notion about International racing, no one is getting 'banned for life' for setting up scores. Obviously they weren't following Barney Curley's exploits last year. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=curley

You don't think there's a difference between "giving a horse a race" and having a firster test positive for aceprozamine at 40 times the allowable limit?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

You don't think there's a difference between "giving a horse a race" and having a firster test positive for aceprozamine at 40 times the allowable limit?

I do.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53846

Hi Luv... I had thought about sticking it here, on this thread BUT wanted the focus to be on the positive (their action) instead of a footnote to a negative.

It's all good though... it really doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Kasept

Oh yes.. They're so noble with their grandstanding.

As Jay Privman tweeted, 'Not defending what's gone on with Masochistic, but I remember when Shoemaker & Charlie Whittingham would operate similarly and no one ever questioned them.'

And of course like every other wrong-headed notion about International racing, no one is getting 'banned for life' for setting up scores. Obviously they weren't following Barney Curley's exploits last year. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=curley

With respect, if this is grandstanding? I'm all for it. I think the feeling of the line about being banned for life was what was important and not taking it in a literal sense.

Originally Posted by Danzig

everyone says they want to clean up the sport...and then when something happens, there are shrugs.
deeds, not words.

Exactly.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Oh yes.. They're so noble with their grandstanding.

As Jay Privman tweeted, 'Not defending what's gone on with Masochistic, but I remember when Shoemaker & Charlie Whittingham would operate similarly and no one ever questioned them.'

And of course like every other wrong-headed notion about International racing, no one is getting 'banned for life' for setting up scores. Obviously they weren't following Barney Curley's exploits last year. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=curley

There are some legitimate differences with the Curley coup, mostly in that the public wasn't taken for a ride, but rather the bookmakers.

That said, when the bookmakers lose, the UK racing industry loses money too.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

There are some legitimate differences with the Curley coup, mostly in that the public wasn't taken for a ride, but rather the bookmakers.

That said, when the bookmakers lose, the UK racing industry loses money too.

Assuming there is some kind of wrongdoing going on, it is somehow more acceptable to defraud bookmakers than the public?

[Cannon Shell]

While the ace positive makes Avila look really bad, for those who bet on the horse what is the difference between not trying or not trying plus acepromazine?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While the ace positive makes Avila look really bad, for those who bet on the horse what is the difference between not trying or not trying plus acepromazine?

probably nothing. but to say he needs a race vs don't really push him and let's give him a tranq too....just seems so over the top.


but that's probably why it's called gambling and not winning.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While the ace positive makes Avila look really bad, for those who bet on the horse what is the difference between not trying or not trying plus acepromazine?

Exactly..I bet on horses that are not well meant ALL the time without knowing they arent fit enough or conditioned to win a race. The drugs are just a eye sore they really have little to do with the fact that in most races there are several horses that arent in it to win it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Exactly..I bet on horses that are not well meant ALL the time without knowing they arent fit enough or conditioned to win a race. The drugs are just a eye sore they really have little to do with the fact that in most races there are several horses that arent in it to win it.

which doesn't excuse what he did one whit.
again, people say clean up the sport....and then excuses are made whenever a bad apple turns up.

Originally Posted by Kasept

Oh yes.. They're so noble with their grandstanding.

As Jay Privman tweeted, 'Not defending what's gone on with Masochistic, but I remember when Shoemaker & Charlie Whittingham would operate similarly and no one ever questioned them.'

And of course like every other wrong-headed notion about International racing, no one is getting 'banned for life' for setting up scores. Obviously they weren't following Barney Curley's exploits last year. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=curley

If it was excused before, it should be excused every time? The tweet itself is actually defending whats going on with Masochistic. He established precedent with that history lesson.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

If it was excused before, it should be excused every time? The tweet itself is actually defending whats going on with Masochistic. He established precedent with that history lesson.

I could be wrong, but I don't think guys like Whittingham or a Bill Mott are running their debuters way over the limit on Ace.

Sure, Masochistic got a bizarre ride in his debut. And trainers have every right to run debuters who are way short or poorly meant.

However, you have to draw the line at 'nobbling'

If you're going to run a horse with the intent of trying to lose the race, and the jockey is going to give a ride that suggests the intent is trying to lose. That's fine. Just don't compound the shadiness of it by being over the limit for a Tranq.

Of course, this whole situation probably stays under the radar if not for the stunningly brazen placement of where Masochistic was placed in his 2nd career start.

Anyone familiar with modern bookmaking in the Internet age, understands the high limits and caps books offer on races at CD on Derby day.