If you're not a horse then maybe you're a rabbit

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't see anyone disputing the value or fairness of rabbits. Certainly they are used constantly in European races and, as you mentioned, they have been used in the US at different times.

The problem in the Woodward was twofold. First of all the rabbits were neither owned by the same people that they were helping and they were a seperate betting interest than that horse. It is one thing to look to help yourself and another for different owners to effectively gang up on another horse in a given race. Once again, this was not Dutrow's fault, it was the fault of the track and the powers that be for allowing this situation to occur. If nothing else, the owners of Saint Liam should have bought at least a partial interest in both rabbits prior to the race. The second situation was, IMO, Dutrow's fault, and that was the manner in which the rabbits were ridden. It is one thing to ensure an honest pace, or even duel a speed horse into submission if that one is unable to rate, but an entirely different thing to look to physically intimidate another competitor. Any unbiased view of the head-on shot down the backstretch would have trouble defending the notion that the two rabbits were ONLY trying to ensure a fast or honest pace that day.

I happen to agree with you on this BTW. It's the rules that are unfair.
The problem is how to tell a guy he cant run a horse in a race.
They will point to Seek Gold at 99-1 as an example that anything can happen.
I wish the stewards in the US had the authority and power like those overseas to suspend and question trainers and jocks who give race altering rides. I mean, in theory they do, but they never do it.
I'd love to have stewards asking all these jocks and trainers in grade one races why their horses have great speed until the grade one comes along(especially with fillies who are so much more valuable when getting a grade one placing) and they grab.
I don't think Dutrow was real happy or proud of what occurred that day.
I know for a fact he was furious that Prado got yanked, and it was not his call. Thats why after Silver Train ran the BC sprint and won he said on Tv that he was standing next to the greatest jockey alive. It was a not so subtle message. There are owners and racing managers involved with some of these horses, and the trainer doesn't get the whole say.
I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.
But as the rules stand, rabbits are used. And not everything is just a reflection of winning.
The Coolmore thing has gotten very ugly with the Sheikhs. By boycotting the sires and offspring of Coolmore, they have basically made breeders afraid to breed to Coolomores stallions because they know they won't hit a home run at the sales. That can potentially cost them hunderds of millions. So Coolmore wants to beat the Sheikh's stars.
Its spilled over into a complex situation that has effects on the track and off the track in so very many ways.
And none of it is pleasant.

I was just thinking the same thing, that Sun King may have had a hell of a shot in here had he been running. Shame that Nick won't get a chance to perhaps benefit from a rabbit after being hurt by one last year.
Wonder if its too late to change his mind.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.

I couldn't agree more, in a race where most jocks try to win with their mount, they were trying for another jocks mount NOT to win...It is like bunting when a guy has a perfect game going in the bottom of the 8th inning with 2 outs and the other team is up 7 runs...BUSHLEAGUE

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.

I strongly disagree with this. I think if he could do it all over again, he would've done even more to Smarty so he wouldn't have had to sweat out that last 1/16th of a mile.

Originally Posted by Scav

I couldn't agree more, in a race where most jocks try to win with their mount, they were trying for another jocks mount NOT to win...It is like bunting when a guy has a perfect game going in the bottom of the 8th inning with 2 outs and the other team is up 7 runs...BUSHLEAGUE

I think had that race taken place in Europe, Bailey and Solis would have been sat down for the year by the stewards, and I'm not kidding.
A clearly blatant attempt to sacrifice any chance their mounts had to win just to try and make sure another horse lost.
Its probably the most incredible race I ever saw a horse run, no kidding.
He was basically under siege every step of the way by two horses who both went on to win grade one's. Their use of energy had them shooting backward in the field on the turn and they stopped to walks. Smarty kicked on and was passed near the wire, never stopped trying and even tried to come back on Birdstone, and was beaten a length.
I highly doubt that in my life I will ever see another 3 year old like Smarty. I'd say its just about impossible.
That race, much more than his Preakness, marked him as one of the best three year olds who ever stepped onto a race track.
Anyone who doesn't understand what he did that day should really take up shuffleboard or needlepoint as a hobby.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I strongly disagree with this. I think if he could do it all over again, he would've done even more to Smarty so he wouldn't have had to sweat out that last 1/16th of a mile.

LOL!!!
You and IndianCharlie would be great friends.
The Indian even devoted an entire negative sheet towards Bailey on the day up here this summer where they had Jerry Bailey day.
I'd like to think he wouldn't have Ateam, but I can't swear to it, lol.

[tycharles01]

Just noticed this

Wanderin Boy is nominated too I doubt he will run but imagine that pace dual to get the lead

Originally Posted by tycharles01

Just noticed this

Wanderin Boy is nominated too I doubt he will run but imagine that pace dual to get the lead

I doubt Nick would run him back so quickly.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think had that race taken place in Europe, Bailey and Solis would have been sat down for the year by the stewards, and I'm not kidding.
A clearly blatant attempt to sacrifice any chance their mounts had to win just to try and make sure another horse lost.
Its probably the most incredible race I ever saw a horse run, no kidding.
He was basically under siege every step of the way by two horses who both went on to win grade one's. Their use of energy had them shooting backward in the field on the turn and they stopped to walks. Smarty kicked on and was passed near the wire, never stopped trying and even tried to come back on Birdstone, and was beaten a length.
I highly doubt that in my life I will ever see another 3 year old like Smarty. I'd say its just about impossible.
That race, much more than his Preakness, marked him as one of the best three year olds who ever stepped onto a race track.
Anyone who doesn't understand what he did that day should really take up shuffleboard or needlepoint as a hobby.

Oracle,
I totally agree with you on this.
I'm thinking the JCGC sets up for a longshot.
Just my dime minus eight.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Oracle,
I totally agree with you on this.
I'm thinking the JCGC sets up for a longshot.
Just my dime minus eight.

I'm kinda thinking that they will try and hinder one horse, and wind up making the other Sheikh horse the winner. Invasor certainly strikes me as a horse who is very comfortable coming from off the pace.
I think he would be the big winner if a rabbit is used.

[Gander]

Wanderin Boy is pointed to a race at the Meadowlands- The Pegasus.
If he runs well there then he will either go in the Cigar Mile or the BC Classic.
Since Sun King is running in the BC Classic, he probably will go to the Cigar Mile.

Originally Posted by Gander

Wanderin Boy is pointed to a race at the Meadowlands- The Pegasus.
If he runs well there then he will either go in the Cigar Mile or the BC Classic.
Since Sun King is running in the BC Classic, he probably will go to the Cigar Mile.

Tim you mean the Meadowlands Cup. The Pegasus is for three year olds.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by oracle80

LOL!!!
You and IndianCharlie would be great friends.
The Indian even devoted an entire negative sheet towards Bailey on the day up here this summer where they had Jerry Bailey day.
I'd like to think he wouldn't have Ateam, but I can't swear to it, lol.

Dude, that **** made me sick.. And they did the whole ceremony in between races, so I had to work an extra 15 minutes.. I was like "Bailey, you had to screw me one last time.."

[Sightseek]

If you're going to use him for a rabbit that day, why not use him on a day where he at least has a chance of bringing home a check too...take down Henny Hughes. Bernardini can rate and the Sheiks will have the last laugh.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I'm kinda thinking that they will try and hinder one horse, and wind up making the other Sheikh horse the winner. Invasor certainly strikes me as a horse who is very comfortable coming from off the pace.
I think he would be the big winner if a rabbit is used.

I agree that they will have a target.
With Invasor getting a set up, you probably are completely correct.
The only way to make money on this race is, to me, figure a long shot to complete the exacta, and another in a tri.
The fave and the rabbit will be used up...both off the board.

The biggest disgrace was Laz Barrera and Craig Perret ganging up on Seattle Slew in the JCGC 1978. I think the rabbit was Life's Hope, but I am not certain. Perret even catcalled; it backfired when Affirmed's saddle slipped. In defeat, Seattle Slew shut up all his detractors. BERNARDINI LOVES A TARGET!!!!

[Gander]

Yes, sorry the Meadowlands Cup. I always get the 2 big races at the Meadowlands confused. Thanks for the clarification.

You know what else is coming up at the Meadowlands? That race on Halloween where all gray horses run. Its kind of neat to watch.

Originally Posted by Gander

Yes, sorry the Meadowlands Cup. I always get the 2 big races at the Meadowlands confused. Thanks for the clarification.

You know what else is coming up at the Meadowlands? That race on Halloween where all gray horses run. Its kind of neat to watch.

Watch for runners from NYRA tracks there. Pletcher, Zito, and McGaughey like it there.

Originally Posted by Gander

Yes, sorry the Meadowlands Cup. I always get the 2 big races at the Meadowlands confused. Thanks for the clarification.

You know what else is coming up at the Meadowlands? That race on Halloween where all gray horses run. Its kind of neat to watch.

Ah, the Grey Ghost!
Its a starter allowance race for greys who have started for a tag of I think 35K or less.
Quite amusing to watch.

[Gander]

The Meadowlands is a great kept secret in horse racing. I love the night races and its nice to see the big name trainers and horses like Wanderin Boy run there. They have great turf racing there as well.

Speaking of starter allowances I miss Coyote Lakes! Man was that horse ever good at running those marathon distances.