Aqueduct Card

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

I like the change of subject to deflect the conversation, I think someone else pointed that out in an earlier post I made about nyra versus keeneland where you were wripping me for defending keeneland over nyra.

I guess we both are just thoroughly and consistently disappointed in the quality of the product that nyra puts out beyond their saratoga meet. Seems like from the above posts we are not the only ones wishing the slot dollars would have went to a better product instead of more of the same.

The fact that you're the same person under two ID's posting from the same IP belies that answer.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Raising the claiming level amounts is going to make it harder for owners who acutally care about trying to grind out a profit.

The "flip men" game is really what gives owners the best chance.

Get yourself a true move-up trainer. Claim from mid-levels taking the best you can find off of trainers you'll improve upon... and if you whiff by claiming something with a lot of issues, drop them. It's a pretty simple game.

Guys like Cole - who can get those true wizards in the Mid-Atlantic to train like Beattie, Wells, and now Scooter - can even take off of the very bottom level a lot and still maintain a 40% win percentage as an owner.

Horse racing today is setup terribly difficult for people who want to make a living as an owner.

A lot of people don't realize how laughably over-priced horses are -- especially at sales. You see horses selling in the 150K-to-350K range at 2-year-old sales every year who you know have zero ability at all. There are horses who sell that well who would be horrible investments for $1,500 because they simply can't run and the horse has already proved so much.

If you could 'short' horses like this as investments it would be a picnic. You're strongly against-the-wind as a bettor because of takeout...but unless you have a starting bankroll atleast in the mid six figures and can get the right trainers at the right tracks and can afford to consistantly take horses well off the bottom..you're just as much against-the-wind as a bettor is.

I'd like to see claiming levels at a place like Presque Isle come down to $2,500. I think it would certainly attract a lot more owners and give them a much better shot to be profitable. More than half of the horses who run for 5K right now -- aren't even worth anything close to $2,500 for an owner.

Nobody is saying you can't have lower claiming prices, but they should be more in line with purses. If the current set up is allowing guys like Cole to thrive, that alone tells me there is something desperately wrong with the way the game is played.

People don't have to take time with horses and actually practice horsemanship, which is in no way good for the animals. I have no doubt many more horses are sent out that shouldn't be because of slots purses. It also, in my mind, encourages cheating.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The fact that you're the same person under two ID's posting from the same IP belies that answer.

Highlight of the day!

Sorry to digress, as I am actually finding this thread fascinating. Honestly.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Highlight of the day!

Sorry to digress, as I am actually finding this thread fascinating. Honestly.

I agree, but I think I am finding it fascinating in a different way. Sifting through the nonsense, there is a legitimate discussion here.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing Chuck's suggestions will fall on deaf ears.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If the current set up is allowing guys like Cole to thrive, that alone tells me there is something desperately wrong with the way the game is played.

The current set-up is keeping some wanna-be Cole's away...because they're simply way out-priced.

As I know that you know -- this game is setup so harshly for the bettor and the owner.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The fact that you're the same person under two ID's posting from the same IP belies that answer.

[Arletta]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The fact that you're the same person under two ID's posting from the same IP belies that answer.

Fine work Stevie

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The current set-up is keeping some wanna-be Cole's away...because they're simply way out-priced.

As I know that you know -- this game is setup so harshly for the bettor and the owner.

If you are running 5k horses for 15k, why not make them 10 or 15k horses? Raising the claiming price does nothing to hurt the current owner unless he is looking to get rid of damaged goods. The purse stays the same, and he is less likely to lose his horse. I don't have a lot of sympathy for owners looking to get rid of damaged goods.

Raising the claiming price is also still going to keep the wannabe Coles out, even moreso.

[Rudeboyelvis]

I don't know that raising the claiming price can improve the product - As Chuck points out, look at the mess in LA. They breed crap to crap, just so they can cash a slot-juiced state-bred MSW check with a 37 bsf.

The horses cannot compete anywhere else in the country, and you're stuck with a program that unbetable and unentertaining.

What do you do with all of the uncompetitive NY breds already there? The glut poorly bred horses will continue to increase as breeders get incented on these purses too. Will be interesting to see the ratio on NY Breds going through the Ocala ring relative to recent years past.

I don't think making them run for 15k instead of 7500 is an answer.

Without some strict controls, they're going to need to build another lower rung facility to race these things, or only pay the owner /breeder awards in open-company contests and remove the state bred restriction all together.

[freddymo]

I am tying to figure out were these allowance/ high valued claimers are. I think there are a few more 50k claimers around NY but save the few at FG and GP were are these better horses coming from Europe. Asia NZ Australia?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

I don't know that raising the claiming price can improve the product - As Chuck points out, look at the mess in LA. They breed crap to crap, just so they can cash a slot-juiced state-bred MSW check with a 37 bsf.

The horses cannot compete anywhere else in the country, and you're stuck with a program that unbetable and unentertaining.

What do you do with all of the uncompetitive NY breds already there? The glut poorly bred horses will continue to increase as breeders get incented on these purses too. Will be interesting to see the ratio on NY Breds going through the Ocala ring relative to recent years past.

I don't think making them run for 15k instead of 7500 is an answer.

Without some strict controls, they're going to need to build another lower rung facility to race these things, or only pay the owner /breeder awards in open-company contests and remove the state bred restriction all together.

Maybe it wouldn't help, but it would be better for horses. It wouldn't hurt anything. Any new owner that buys in cheaply and happens to get a decent horse is going to become quickly disillusioned with the sport when their horse is taken away by some miracle worker.

There is always FL for the NY breds, just like the old days.

[Calzone Lord]

IMO, the cheap open claiming races are always the best betting races anyway at lesser tracks, and inflating the claiming levels more would basically take away the true little guys chance to own a horse by himself.

I had claimed a few horses in 2001 and 2002 on the bottom (for 4K) -- but I only had 50% of them.

The first time I ever dropped a claim for a horse 100% on my own was on a horse in a $3,500 claiming race at Charles Town named Action Attraction.

The $3,500 claiming race had a purse of $16,500. It was at a time and place where you could get good trainers who charged just $30 a day and 10% WP.

The horse I claimed was dropping from a strong 2nd in a starter alw race.

I wasn't even driving at the time and hadn't had a job job for over 4 years. I just looked at it as making my biggest bet ever at great odds. A true gamble though because of the "for sale sign" drop.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=2

The horse ran dead last beaten about 25 lengths. I knew I'd probably have to shake -- but I wanted to vomit right there.

I go into the racing office. It was shoulder-to-shoulder crowded. Five different horses in the race had been claimed...and there was a 19-way shake for Action Attraction.

Everyone else stands there and looks fine. I'm kneeling down in the back -- in there for more than 10 minutes -- just praying I don't get the horse. I didn't get her. I felt like I won the lottery and I was the only person in that entire room who was openly celebrating.

She ended up not being damaged goods. Made over 200K. Was winning starter alw races with 21K purses and 7,500 clm races with 23K purses just a few months later.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...ry=USA&race=12

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=6

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

IMO, the cheap open claiming races are always the best betting races anyway at lesser tracks, and inflating the claiming levels more would basically take away the true little guys chance to own a horse by himself.

I had claimed a few horses in 2001 and 2002 on the bottom (for 4K) -- but I only had 50% of them.

The first time I ever dropped a claim for a horse 100% on my own was on a horse in a $3,500 claiming race at Charles Town named Action Attraction.

The $3,500 claiming race had a purse of $16,500. It was at a time and place where you could get good trainers who charged just $30 a day and 10% WP.

The horse I claimed was dropping from a strong 2nd in a starter alw race.

I wasn't even driving at the time and hadn't had a job job for over 4 years. I just looked at it as making my biggest bet ever at great odds. A true gamble though because of the "for sale sign" drop.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=2

The horse ran dead last beaten about 25 lengths. I knew I'd probably have to shake -- but I wanted to vomit right there.

I go into the racing office. It was shoulder-to-shoulder crowded. Five different horses in the race had been claimed...and there was a 19-way shake for Action Attraction.

Everyone else stands there and looks fine. I'm kneeling down in the back -- in there for more than 10 minutes -- just praying I don't get the horse. I didn't get her. I felt like I won the lottery and I was the only person in that entire room who was openly celebrating.

She ended up not being damaged goods. Made over 200K. Was winning starter alw races with 21K purses and 7,500 clm races with 23K purses just a few months later.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...ry=USA&race=12

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=6

Is that the worst thing that's ever happened to you?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If you are running 5k horses for 15k, why not make them 10 or 15k horses? Raising the claiming price does nothing to hurt the current owner unless he is looking to get rid of damaged goods. The purse stays the same, and he is less likely to lose his horse. I don't have a lot of sympathy for owners looking to get rid of damaged goods.

Raising the claiming price is also still going to keep the wannabe Coles out, even moreso.

Aren't markets healthier when they are free?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Aren't markets healthier when they are free?

Explain how that question makes any sense here and I'll try to answer.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Explain how that question makes any sense here and I'll try to answer.

If a horse is worth X shouldnt the claiming value be X and nt a made up value? If Unbridled Danger is a good value at 7500 then why make him run for 15k just because?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

I don't know that raising the claiming price can improve the product - As Chuck points out, look at the mess in LA. They breed crap to crap, just so they can cash a slot-juiced state-bred MSW check with a 37 bsf.

The horses cannot compete anywhere else in the country, and you're stuck with a program that unbetable and unentertaining.

What do you do with all of the uncompetitive NY breds already there? The glut poorly bred horses will continue to increase as breeders get incented on these purses too. Will be interesting to see the ratio on NY Breds going through the Ocala ring relative to recent years past.

I don't think making them run for 15k instead of 7500 is an answer.

Without some strict controls, they're going to need to build another lower rung facility to race these things, or only pay the owner /breeder awards in open-company contests and remove the state bred restriction all together.

They have a facility for cheap NYbreds, Finger Lakes.

I'm not suggesting that people simply run $7500 horses for $15000. I'm suggesting that they get rid of them if they want to race at NYRA tracks.

We aren't that far removed from NY breds having 4 types of races at NYRA. MSW, NW1x allowance, NW2x allowance and stakes. Because of the expansion of the NY bred program more classes will be needed than 4 but not that many more. Maybe a NYB $25000 claiming race, a NYB $35000 maiden claimer and starter handicap series for NYB's?

The need to raise the bottom is really the easiest thing to do. The NY breeders will scream about any roll back of NY bred races even if you up the purses enough in the other NYB races to cover the mandatory payout and number of races required are met. Getting rid of most of the conditioned claiming races and starter allowances will be met with resistance from horsemen. The stall thing will have the biggest (and most connected for the most part) trainers going crazy. But what are they going to do? Send a string to Colonial or Suffolk? Try Ellis Park? Most already have horses in KY(at CD or Kee) and Delaware or Woodbine or Monmouth. There isn't anywhere else for them to go. Are owners really going to let their trainer talk them into running for a far cheaper purse somewhere else if they can win in NY? This is the least likely thing to happen and yet it is probably the most important. It will take a lot of balls to try out of the box stuff because pretty much no one in the industry does and there will be a lot of influential people that will be killing you and hoping that it fails (mostly because they like the status quo in which they are part of the machine that has a stranglehold on horseracing at the upper levels). But it would work and in the end would mean a better product at our most important circuit. How it affects the other tracks is a mystery as there are a million factors but it could provide a template that other tracks with casino money and poorly designed racing programs (like most all of them) could try to follow. Or it might even serve to kill off some of them as they are stripped of their quality horses and have nothing but low level races to offer and the politicians finally get wise that the money is being squandered (oh wait that already happening...)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Aren't markets healthier when they are free?

Not all markets. Think the NFL would be better without a salary cap?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

If a horse is worth X shouldnt the claiming value be X and nt a made up value? If Unbridled Danger is a good value at 7500 then why make him run for 15k just because?

There would be no made up value. If a horse is worth less than 15k then he needs to run elsewhere. If you want better racing you have to start somewhere.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There would be no made up value. If a horse is worth less than 15k then he needs to run elsewhere. If you want better racing you have to start somewhere.

I see a lot of horses worth 25K running for bloated 15k claiming purses and a bunch of juiced 7500 running and beating the horses that are worth 25k. I dont see how any of this changes anything.Whocares what the claiming tag is?