Jeter vs Dye for MVP

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I wonder what his brother does when guys take him by the throat and start shaking him around?
My guess is nothing but laugh.

He wanted me to ask you if you were related to Ray Paulick. He is some guy his is friends with in Kentucky. Paulick works for the bloodhorse.

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

He wanted me to ask you if you were related to Ray Paulick. He is some guy his is friends with in Kentucky. Paulick works for the bloodhorse.

No I am not.
And I really hope he reads some of the filth you write and gives you a slap. I can't imagine anyone who has any credibility reading what his ignorant little brother writes and not wanting to strangle him.
P.S. I don't care who your brother is, and neither does anyone else.

[Gander]

Mike-

The Twins are 26-5 in the 31 games Johan Santana has pitched in. How many of those 31 games would the Twins have won if say they had an average pitcher in there like Jared Wright? While Jeter is an excellent player, he doesnt have as much to do with the Yankees winning as Santana does when the Twins win. And Jermaine Dye doesnt just have "more HRs than Jeter", he has almost 30 more. And 22 more RBI. Two stats much more important in today's game than batting average.

All very awesome players, none of them bad choices to win the MVP. Even Long Duck Dong has a shot at the MVP this year.

Originally Posted by Gander

Mike-

The Twins are 26-5 in the 31 games Johan Santana has pitched in. How many of those 31 games would the Twins have won if say they had an average pitcher in there like Jared Wright? While Jeter is an excellent player, he doesnt have as much to do with the Yankees winning as Santana does when the Twins win. And Jermaine Dye doesnt just have "more HRs than Jeter", he has almost 30 more. And 22 more RBI. Two stats much more important in today's game than batting average.

All very awesome players, none of them bad choices to win the MVP. Even Long Duck Dong has a shot at the MVP this year.

Tim thats just crazy. And Rbi's in the 2nd slot? 92? Go find me someone this year hitting in the 2nd slot with 92 Rbi's. I havent looked, I swear Tim, but thats an awful high number for a guy batting 2nd.
Whats the Yanks record in games that Rivera appeared in Tim? Bet its better than santana's!!!! Lots better.
And if home runs mean so much , why will Big papi and manny be home on the couch soon instead of in the playoffs?

[Gander]

Because the Red Sox are quitting slobs. Thats why!

Mariano only usually pitches in games with the Yankees leading or tied at worst. He doesnt do as much as Santana does in the games he pitches. That is not even arguable.

Who cares about MVP's anyways? The only thing that matters is winning the World Series.

Originally Posted by Gander

Because the Red Sox are quitting slobs. Thats why!

Mariano only usually pitches in games with the Yankees leading or tied at worst. He doesnt do as much as Santana does in the games he pitches. That is not even arguable.

Who cares about MVP's anyways? The only thing that matters is winning the World Series.

Well if hr's mattered so much then Giambi would be the MVP of the Yankees and it just aint so.
The all around game of a player is the key.
And pitchers only pitch 30-40 times. That aint enough to get an award vs guys who play every day.
Dh's don't have to play the field and have no business winning it either.

[Gander]

I disagree but thats just my right as an American tax payer! And I hope your not trying to compare Giambi with Dye as hitters. Dye is batting a very nice .321. Not sure what Giambi is batting but I will take a gander its at least 70 points below Dye's average. Dye is the complete package, an excellent fielder to boot. I wont go into my opinion of Giambi. You all know it and frankly its as tired as dscussing polycrap.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

The only reason people care about this is because Ortiz started running his mouth about it.Ortiz probably deserves this,but I would never vote for anybody on that team for anything this year.You shut it down on the 25th of August.and you deserve nothing,and your players deserve nothing.If they want one of their players to get an award,they will get their a$$ back into to atleast pinch hit in games.I do not think Jeter has done enough.If he was so valuable,then he wouldn't be batting 2nd would he? No.So,don't tell us he would have more RBIs if he was batting 4th.His manager would bat him 4th if he was their most valuable hitter.It is a lame argument to say "if he was batting somewhere else." Anybody but those 2 (Ortiz,and Jeter)is fine with me.Atleast Ortiz has the numbers.Folks,you aren't the most valuable player unless your shooting the ball out of the park atleast 35 times a season.You just aren't.To say someboidy with less than 35 jaks is MVP material,is simply a large media push.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Jeter will be either first or second in the batting title, has played outstanding short all year, and will have over 100 RBI's hitting second. What more would you like him to do? Again, I think either he or Dye should get it, but I think Jeter's season has been a definite MVP type year.

Like I said ..........minimum 35 jaks a year.You don't like that? Too bad.Powerful people are valuable.They damage.Halos survived many a single and double that little Jeter got off them.If those had been jaks,you wouldn't be wondering why the Halos have beaten you 9 times in 1 calendar year.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well you edited your post, after to include the 35, or I would have mentioned it. I personally can't stand the Yankees, I am not a fan, as I said earlier so this isn't grandstanding. Power is indeed important, but I'd take Jeter over anyone in the game right now. His numbers are there, but it's the intangibles that make him special. And actually I don't think power wins games. Good pitching, good defense and timely hitting wins games.

Mainly,it's good pitching that wins games,and Oracle is gunna get that thru his head when Haren,Contreras,Santana etc. beat the Yanks in the post.That 3 hitter that Haren threw today was gunna be that way regardless of the team at bat.He will realize that soon enough.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'm with you on pitching. I usually am fighting with Yankee fans this time of year, because I am so sure they will get beat in the playoffs. But I'm not so sure this year. I don't think the White Sox are going to get in. Which leaves Minn, who cannot beat them in a series with no Liriano. Detroit has had a great year, but I am troubled by the way they are finishing the year off. The Angels can beat them and have shown they can. It's the Yanks or Angels in the World Series in my opinion.

Angels aren't getting it done offensively,and quite frankly Mike has done a lot of stupid things this year.Take today,for instance,Saunders has been horrible each time on 4 days rest,but they start him anyways.Then he gets lit up,and has no control,and they don't take him out until there are like 6 or 7 runs given up.Pretty retarded.If I didn't know better,I would think Mike had 10k on the CHISOX,or he bet the over.The guy has been great on 5 days rest.Hell,ask Oracle.He beat them on a Friday night in New York(5 days rest,)and then got shelled by them on a Sunday in Anaheim(on 4 days rest.)

BTW,I do think the Chisox will get in.All 3 pitchers the last 3 games pitched well.Contreras wasn't gunna be hit by anybody.Not sure about the other 2.The Halos are pretty much women at the plate half the time,but for sure Contreras was a witch on Monday Night.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You honestly think there is a more valuable pitcher in baseball than Mariano? Do you know any GM who would rather have Santana on his team over mariano? WOW!!

Santana is easily the best pitcher in baseball. He has no weakness and is much younger than Rivera. Rivera is a great player but Santana is a dominant starter, true ace, in an era where there is no aces.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ditto, and do any of you honestly feel hes more valuable than Mariano? Blah. I dont any manager alive who would rather have santana over mariano.

I'd take santana and nathan over wang and rivera anyday.

[Cannon Shell]

Actually when you examine the numbers two things stick out at you.
1. Santana is clearly the best pitcher in baseball and may be the best player at his position.
2. Rivera is slipping. This is not one his better years and when you take into consideration he is 36 he might be going the wrong way.

Want proof?

W - L ERA SV IP H BB K H/9 BB/9 K/9
Rivera 5 - 5 1.90 33 71 57 11 49 8.1 1.2 5.7
Santana 18- 5 2.75 n/a 212 166 43 230 6.5 1.6 9.1

Santana leads the league in Wins, ERA, K's, IP. A triple crown for starters.
Rivera leads AL closers in ...well....nothing.
He is the 5th best closer in the AL this year. Papllebaum, K-Rod, Nathan, and B.J. Ryan all are having better seasons than Mariano.

Ever heard of VORP? It is similar to a sheet number for baseball players.Higher is better.
Santana's for the last 3 years - 73, 89.9, 51.1
Rivera's are 32.2, 37.9, 32.6
Value over replacement player clearly indicates that Santana isn't only more valuable at his position than Rivera is at his, it's not really even close.

Historically Rivera will go down as the greatest closer in history but in 2006 and beyond, Johan Santana is who you want.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I think we have awards for pitching already(cy Young etc.)For fielding we have gold gloves(not doubt Jeter should get this for ss.)We have the batting title for batting average(I suggest Jeter try for this.)Then,we have the award for power hitting,and RBI production(MVP.) Then,you have to decide if somebody on a team (that doesn't make the post ) is really that valuable.See,folks,Ortiz has the numbers deserving of this award.However,he and his team did not even try pinch hitting with him in a pivotal week or more in late August/early September.They gave up.How valuable was he on a team that quit? Depends on what you think the award should be given out for.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Where is slugging percentage and OPS? Or did you conveniently forget those? What a surprise you forgot those.

Dye- OPS 1.025 Jeter OPS .915
Dye-Slugging .637 Jeter Slugging .492

Dye is in the best division in baseball. He has 28 more hr's and he does not have a $200 million dollar payroll surrounding him.

Dye has more people setting the table for him than Jeter due to their respective spots in batting order. Jeter in a close vote!

[Gander]

In summation, relievers like Riviera come into games to protect leads created by dominant pitchers like Santana. The starters do the hard work and the relievers simply protect leads. Important and necessary? Yes. But lets be realistic, Riviera isnt exactly having a career year and check out most of the leads he has to protect...usually at minimum 2-3 run leads.

And to compare a player like Jermaine Dye with Jason Giambi is absurd and that quite frankly is putting it very nicely.

Originally Posted by Gander

In summation, relievers like Riviera come into games to protect leads created by dominant pitchers like Santana. The starters do the hard work and the relievers simply protect leads. Important and necessary? Yes. But lets be realistic, Riviera isnt exactly having a career year and check out most of the leads he has to protect...usually at minimum 2-3 run leads.

And to compare a player like Jermaine Dye with Jason Giambi is absurd and that quite frankly is putting it very nicely.

Noone was comparing Dye with Giambi Tim. Only you are.
What I was saying was that the argument that power outshines overall performance is absurd and I said if power were what mattered most, then Giambi would be the MVP of the Yankee team, which is absurd.
Power is only one component of the game. And the position in which you batcertainly has an effect on your hr's and rbi's. Jeter used to hit a lot more hr's, hes below his career average this year. But when you bat 2nd its a different role. Your job is to advance the leadoff hitter if he gets on base in the first inning, or if he doesn't get on you are supposed to get yourself on through a walk or hit to set it up for the power guys behind you.
RBI's are tough to come by when you are in that slot and the RBI's you do get often take place if the 7th, 8th, or 9th hitter gets on base.
As a matter of fact i was using Giambi as an example that power is not the most important thing. Dye is having a great year, no doubt, and is a deserving candidate.
But to mention Santana flies in the face of what I feel is baseball logic.
Pitchers only play every 5th game, and I will always feel that they can never be more valuable than an every day player. Dye and Jeter have certainly won more games for their teams than Santana did for his. Dh's I feel strongly about as well. Dh's simply don't have to play the field which gives them much more energy within a game and allows them to focus strictly on batting practice rather than fielding practice as well. Dh's are vital to AL teams but a guy like jeter who hits as well as goes out there and makes greta plays and turns double plays has twice the impact of a DH.
I'm one of those stick in the mud guys who feels that the MVP should go to an every day player and not a DH.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Tim,
Pitchers and DH's have no right ever getting that award. That award should be for every day players who play the field as well as hit. And you get the absurd statement of the day award for arguing for any pitcher before Mariano. You honestly think there is a more valuable pitcher in baseball than Mariano? Do you know any GM who would rather have Santana on his team over mariano? WOW!!

........oracle, i gotta come to ganders defense.
mariano who is the most clutch closer of all time and is still nails isnt as domonate as santana this year.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

........oracle, i gotta come to ganders defense.
mariano who is the most clutch closer of all time and is still nails isnt as domonate as santana this year.

Well I still dunno about that but i do know that neither is as valuable as Jeter or Dye.
Its incredible how little credit anyone gives playing the field anymore. Noone notices until someone boots a ground ball that costs someone a game.
Jeter has been lights out in the field this year and his fielding percentage doesnt even begin to tell the story. Hes made some incredible plays that would have been ruled hits had he not gotten them and turned into one or even two outs.
He carried the Yankees on his back when the whole team was wounded and without Damon, Cano, Matsui and Sheff and before they had traded for ABreu. During that stretch Arod was stinking the joint up as well and Jeter was the guy who held it together. WIthout him, the Yanks are holding a slim lead over Boston right now. Hes been incredibly valuable and his numbers are awesome.