Eclipse voting - Page 2

RollerDoc · #21 01-27-2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I also have a hard time not supporting a Euro winner. The criteria simply says that a horse has to have made at least one NA start and it's hard for me, in a situation like Raven's Pass vs. Big Brown, to believe that Raven's Pass is not the most deserving.

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

rkinnin · #22 01-27-2009, 10:40 PM

Next year there should be a category that allows for a vote for Steve!

Stickhorse · #23 01-27-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

That's it for me folks.....
I'm done with this sport.

Talk about an over reaction!

brockguy · #24 01-28-2009, 01:17 AM

I might be wrong here, but I think the Cartier awards are based on something like 50% on points throughout the year in stakes races and 50% on fans/journalists votes, so if Curlin did win the Arc, he still probably wouldnt win the award.

letswastemoney · #25 01-28-2009, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

Well at least we all know Raven's Pass would crush Big Brown in a fair race.

Heck Tiago would crush Big Brown in a race with pace. Big Brown would have finished....7th or 8th...if he ran in the Classic healthy.

King Glorious · #26 01-28-2009, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

I'd say it's unfortunate because the horse that was the clear best 3yo male to perform in NA in 2008 didn't get the award and instead, our "champion" might have been the third best 3yo male to race in this country.

Danzig · #27 01-28-2009, 09:10 AM

i listened to the discussion on steves show about the eclipse voting, it was pretty amusing to say the least.

perhaps some changes are in order on who gets to vote. maybe those in the sport: owners, trainers, jocks, etc should be the ones voting-not 'turfwriters' who had no idea that ginger punch had a stellar year in '07, noy '08. or who vote for a horse because they cashed a ticket on a horse....
i thought having transparency on who voted for what horse/breeder, etc was a good idea-that way mayyou don't have someone voting for tale of ekati because he/she wouldn't want to have to explain.

Linny · #28 01-28-2009, 09:26 AM

It's not all turf writers. How about racing secretaries at Magna tracks who probably but Stronach over the top for Leading Owner and Breeder. Stronach didn't own or breed a champion but gets both honors? Stonerside bred Midshipman and Raven's Pass (not a champion but the winner of the BCC and a Euro G1) and gets nothing. Maybe it's because they sold out to Sh. Mohammed?
IEAH (who I'm not crazy about) campaigned 2 champions, won the Derby and Preakness, had the #2 juvie filly and a leading turfer (Kip) and got nothing.

Danzig · #29 01-28-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

It's not all turf writers. How about racing secretaries at Magna tracks who probably but Stronach over the top for Leading Owner and Breeder. Stronach didn't own or breed a champion but gets both honors? Stonerside bred Midshipman and Raven's Pass (not a champion but the winner of the BCC and a Euro G1) and gets nothing. Maybe it's because they sold out to Sh. Mohammed?
IEAH (who I'm not crazy about) campaigned 2 champions, won the Derby and Preakness, had the #2 juvie filly and a leading turfer (Kip) and got nothing.

but it doesn't come down to who won the big ones, adena is a perennial leader on the breeding side. i can see an argument for stonerside-altho i don't think the part about giving it to them because they're now out of business was a compelling reason. a horse shouldn't win year end awards based on one big race, neither should an owner or breeder. i can see making an argument for ieah, but i don't think adena was necessarily a bad choice.

RollerDoc · #30 01-28-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Well at least we all know Raven's Pass would crush Big Brown in a fair race.

Heck Tiago would crush Big Brown in a race with pace. Big Brown would have finished....7th or 8th...if he ran in the Classic healthy.

I'm sure your scientific formula to make this absurd statement is qualified.

RollerDoc · #31 01-28-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd say it's unfortunate because the horse that was the clear best 3yo male to perform in NA in 2008 didn't get the award and instead, our "champion" might have been the third best 3yo male to race in this country.

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

King Glorious · #32 01-28-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

I was hoping that you would get over it in 2009 but apparently not. It's silly to say that a vote in favor of another is being anti-Big Brown. There can be more than one good or deserving horse in a category, you know? Do I accuse you of being anti-Raven's Pass because you disagree with me? Evolve my friend.

Linny · #33 01-28-2009, 10:22 AM

Adena/Stronach are perennial leaders and I don't think they were bad choices, but not the best choices. I know they bred and raced alot of leading horses as they always do but IEAH doesn't have that many horses and they earned 2 Eclipses and campaigned several other G1 type horses like Laragh and Kip Deville and Court Vision. It's rare that I defend these guys but I'd have voted for them here.
On the breeding side McNair may have been overlooked because he sold out but he did breed to BC winners, a Juvie champ and a horse who was a serious G1 miler in Europe that won the Classic here. What Raven's Pass accomplished was something that Giant's Causeway and Sahkee couldn't, and that's saying alot. Also, it's not fair to withhold a vote for Stonerside because he sold out. He bred those 2 BC winners and at least at the start of their careers, he raced them. Commercial breeders are eligible to get the Eclipse so why should Stonerside be.

King Glorious · #34 01-28-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

Adena/Stronach are perennial leaders and I don't think they were bad choices, but not the best choices. I know they bred and raced alot of leading horses as they always do but IEAH doesn't have that many horses and they earned 2 Eclipses and campaigned several other G1 type horses like Laragh and Kip Deville and Court Vision. It's rare that I defend these guys but I'd have voted for them here.
On the breeding side McNair may have been overlooked because he sold out but he did breed to BC winners, a Juvie champ and a horse who was a serious G1 miler in Europe that won the Classic here. What Raven's Pass accomplished was something that Giant's Causeway and Sahkee couldn't, and that's saying alot. Also, it's not fair to withhold a vote for Stonerside because he sold out. He bred those 2 BC winners and at least at the start of their careers, he raced them. Commercial breeders are eligible to get the Eclipse so why should Stonerside be.

This is off-topic a little bit but I really hate reading comments like this. It's not what Giant's Causeway and Sakhee COULDN'T do is what they DIDN'T do. Both of those horses ran winning races, perhaps both of them were better efforts than Raven's Pass but they happened to face a better horse than Raven's Pass did and they didn't win their races.

Linny · #35 01-28-2009, 10:42 AM

So in theory if Giant's Causeway and Sahkee had run against easier company (no Tiznow) they'd have won? True, but... Champions are not supposed to seek easier company.

Maybe "didn't" would have been a better term. In fact, GC was probably a better horse than Raven, but Raven never had to beat Giant. What Raven's Pass DID do is something that (IMO) should have when coupled with Midshipman's efforts, earned his breeder the Eclipse.

King Glorious · #36 01-28-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

So in theory if Giant's Causeway and Sahkee had run against easier company (no Tiznow) they'd have won? True, but... Champions are not supposed to seek easier company.

Maybe "didn't" would have been a better term. In fact, GC was probably a better horse than Raven, but Raven never had to beat Giant. What Raven's Pass DID do is something that (IMO) should have when coupled with Midshipman's efforts, earned his breeder the Eclipse.

I agree with you on the Eclipse award. I also don't think it was your intent to say that Raven's Pass was better or more special than those other horses were. It's just a sore point with me. It's like how some people think Charismatic and War Emblem are special because they won 2/3 of the TC while a horse like Easy Goer "couldn't". Circumstances often get overlooked and horses get their values thrown out of whack because people just look at the end results instead of what led to those results.

Linny · #37 01-28-2009, 10:54 AM

Context is everything and in voting for year end awards (just like in the races) they horses don't have to beat historical standards, just the immediate competition. Charismatic won 2/3 of the TC and so did Spectacular Bid and Native Dancer...so?

Danzig · #38 01-28-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

it's no a pro or anti only group is it? there are shades of grey you know, especially where big brown is concerned.
and being the best of last years lot isn't exactly saying a bunch.

Danzig · #39 01-28-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I agree with you on the Eclipse award. I also don't think it was your intent to say that Raven's Pass was better or more special than those other horses were. It's just a sore point with me. It's like how some people think Charismatic and War Emblem are special because they won 2/3 of the TC while a horse like Easy Goer "couldn't". Circumstances often get overlooked and horses get their values thrown out of whack because people just look at the end results instead of what led to those results.

good post. you think you could send it to jess jackson?

King Glorious · #40 01-28-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

good post. you think you could send it to jess jackson?

Once I read the stuff he said about Curlin and how he's one of the best of the last 100 years and all that stuff about him adding to the gene pool.......I realized Jackson is too far gone. He's almost as far out there as Roller Doc is. Almost.