Curlin's Legacy

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

1. Who said Curlin was an all time great?

2. Didn't Curlin at least prove he was better than Street Sense and Hard Spun last year?

3. How could Hard Spun be thought of as better?

4. If Curlin was by Giant's Causeway, would he be thought of higher?

5. How can someone even begin to form an opinion on someone's place in history, when they don't have any clue about racing before 2003? And have no desire to either?

6. Is Mambo In Seattle an all time great?

1. Quiet Chris ... lol

2. Can't say for sure since Curlie was pharmacologically-altered by virtue of his abusive 'roid regimen last season. Haven't found any evidence that either SS or HS received injections of an anabolic steroid on a regular basis.

By the way, could Curlie's acceleration issues this season have anything to do with his being off the 'program'?

3. HS threw some nice performances at various distances and held up well all season long ... likely without the help of anabolic steroids. Not saying he was superior to Curlie ... just that it's difficult to compare a chemically-altered athlete to one that probably wasn't enhanced by steroids.

4. No opinion

5. Good question

If someone is pressed for time, though, I would suggest just watching all of Ghostzapper's races beginning with the '03 King's Bishop. He/she will learn a lot about the following thoroughbred traits: speed, class, brilliance, determination, versatility, stamina.

Would've made Curlie look like a Chuck Town claimer.

6. Don't know much about this Mambo beast, but if he runs in the BCC and finishes ahead of Curlie (and Big Brownroid for that matter) he'll be okay in my book.

Yeah, seeing those two 'roid freaks go down at the BC ... wouldn't that be a great way to usher out the despicable steroid abuse era in thoroughbred racing...

[Bobby Fischer]

Greeley's Legacy

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

3. HS threw some nice performances at various distances and held up well all season long ... likely without the help of anabolic steroids.

trust that hard spun recieved some steroids.

steroids aren't even considered cheating to most of these trainers. Most of the big money operations give regular steroids after races and some after works as well.
It is true that some trainers give steroids more often, but it seems to hurt longevity of the horse. I would guess that most of the more frequent doses are with fillies and claimers.

Hard Spun was a great animal. He got some bad rides in some of his biggest races (preakness, belmont, breeders cup).
Pino and Gomez had one of the triple crown colts with the most stamina at a classic distance looking like a miler to many observers.

He was never developed as a turf division older horse. If you think about the way Sunriver was used, you could have thrown Dominguez on Hard Spun's back in 2008 and you might have been headed for the BC Turf as the favorite.

However, Larry Jones did his job and HS got his stud deal. It's hard to really complain when they accomplished their business objective. They danced a lot of dances, it was a respectable 3yo season.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow. He could have been on his way as the favorite in the BC Turf?

Another "Worst BC Favorites" thread stowaway?

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow. Hard Spun had the most stamina at a classic distance? That's going to be a pretty hard point to convince anyone of. Even Larry Jones. He could have been on his way as the favorite in the BC Turf?

what can i say, i'm ahead of my time lolz

say i'm wrong about Hard Spun being one of the best triple crown colts in terms of stamina...
What races did he run where he displayed a lack of stamina, that weren't accompanied by poor rides ?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

what can i say, i'm ahead of my time lolz

say i'm wrong about Hard Spun being one of the best triple crown colts in terms of stamina...
What races did he run where he displayed a lack of stamina, that weren't accompanied by poor rides ?

Did the poor rides account for the total number of lengths he was beaten in the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and BC Classic?

If anything, the reverse is true. If Hard Spun ever saw out a classic distance, it would have been because of a very clever ride.

[RolloTomasi]

This thread prompted me to watch a replay of last year's Preakness.

All I have to say is, "Thanks a lot."

That had to be the worst melodramatic call I've ever heard, next to the '87 BC Classic by Tom Durkin. The announcer calls races with too many exclaimation points. Who the hell is that guy?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow. Hard Spun had the most stamina at a classic distance? That's going to be a pretty hard point to convince anyone of. Even Larry Jones. He could have been on his way as the favorite in the BC Turf?

If you look at his dosage profile, he had a decent ped for distance.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/hard+spun

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I can't tell if you are serious or not.

Getting a bit slow in our old age, eh Hossy?

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I don't expect an answer. You never answered the first time I asked. But, since you've mentioned it again, where is your evidence that Curlin was on a "abusive 'roid regimen" last year? You mention you haven't found any evidence SS or HS were, which would mean you do have evidence Curlin was. Is there a link to your findings or something I could see?

As you know, DaHoss, there are published reports which state the fact that Curlie was treated with "Winny" last year. Now, given his trainer's long rap sheet of medication violations, do you actually believe that he just got an isolated injection or two of that anabolic steroid during the campaign ... or a number of injections on a more systematic basis (ala Big Brownroid on the "15th of every month") for the purpose of enhancing race performance, among other things?

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Where are these reports? I honestly don't remember the steroid talk last year, so is there a link or something to these reports? The fact they are legal is beside the point. If he was indeed on steroids, he was one of thousands of horses that are.

I understand the trainer has a long rap sheet. But I also know Curlin ran a hole in the wind when breaking his maiden for Helen Pitts. So are we to assume he was "juiced up" then also? It just seems like a lot of guessing and assuming on your part, without any kind of evidence. It's just funny to me that if Curlin was trained by someone like Bill Mott, he'd be looked at in a different light. It's too bad.

A simple Google search will turn up many articles about Curlie's 'roid use last year, DaHoss.

Sure, 'roids were legal just about everywhere, but somehow I doubt the intention was to make them available so that they could be administered to perfectly healthy, robust horses on a regular, systematic basis. There's obviously no question at this point that they have been abused by many trainers for many years for the sole purpose of performance enhancement on the racetrack.

Like I said before, we know that Curlie received an anabolic steroid last season (likely on a regular basis, in my opinion, because of the way he held up during a very long campaign, his very muscular physique - particularly at the BC, and his trainer's rep regarding drugs), but I have yet to see any kind of evidence that either of his two main rivals were treated with 'roids. In fact, I'd be quite surprised if Nafzger used them on SS, especially on any kind of regular basis. So, in my opinion, you simply can't say with certainty that Curlie was the best of his generation because his performances were pharmacologically-enhanced last year and SS's and HS's may not have been.

As far as Curlie running "a hole in the wind" in some maiden contest, please, there have been countless good runners which have scored big in their maiden race.

Also, you never answered the question I posed in the other post ... do you think Curlie's acceleration issues this season have anything to do with his being off the 'program'? Would he have beaten the G3-caliber Wanderin Boy by six or eight lengths instead of less than one length if he was back on a 'roid regimen?

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

do you think Curlie's acceleration issues this season have anything to do with his being off the 'program'?

are steroids tested for in NYRA tracks yet?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Fine we'll agree to disagree then and you can maintain your hard on for Curlin. I have no idea if his accelaration issues have anything to do with being off a steroid thousands of other horses use. I suppose it's possible. Although, he had no problem accelerating in Dubai and in the Stephan Foster. What was the case there? Did Asmussen sneak some in to Dubai? I brought up Curlin's debut race to show that the horse ran huge before Asmussen had him. Am I incorrect there? I don't care when the race was.

And, since we're going to speculate a lot, like if Hard Spun was or wasn't, or Street Sense for that matter. What's your opinion of a lot of the stars of the 80's and 90's trained by trainers known for using steroids? They were considered ahead of the game then. Are we going to ignore all of their accomplishments? It just seems like a case of a giant hard on for the trainer and a lot of speculation, because really, you or I have no idea about most horses being on steroids. We know about Curlin and Big brown because their connections admitted it. I heard Contessa admit it on Steve's show a year or so ago. So how many other barns are doing this? Probably a lot. It sucks and until the different states crack down, it's reality. But there are a lot of other guilty parties than just the one you are blaming.

now, how can we take your post seriously when you don't call the horse curlie?

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It sucks...

Yes it does, DaHoss ... especially for a guy like Nafzger who may've been playing by an unwritten rule and not regularly pumping an anabolic steroid into his animal solely to gain an edge on the racetrack ... only to get nosed in the Preakness (and lose a shot at immortality) by a guy who probably was treating his animal with one on a regular basis.


By the way, Frankel is no angel, but he is on record as saying that he has never used anabolic steroids on any of his horses ... which, of course, includes arguably the best racehorse since 1980, Ghostzapper.